Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?

[polonius]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 106 by polonius.advice]


"To pretend that somehow it is "spiritual" and does not really mean what it clearly says is a attempt to avoid addressing the Bible's errors.

The explanations the fundamentalist believers that attempt to avoid admitting errors in the Bible are truly amazing."

I think you misunderstood. Nowhere did I insinuate that it does not mean what it says. All sacred writings are about spirituality and have spiritual meaning.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 106 by polonius.advice]


"To pretend that somehow it is "spiritual" and does not really mean what it clearly says is a attempt to avoid addressing the Bible's errors.

The explanations the fundamentalist believers that attempt to avoid admitting errors in the Bible are truly amazing."

I think you misunderstood. Nowhere did I insinuate that it does not mean what it says. All sacred writings are about spirituality and have spiritual meaning.

RESPONSE: I understand quite clearly. I just don't play games. The plain meaning of words is governing. Otherwise the statement is untrue or dishonest.

Claiming that some biblical statement is in error if the plain meaning of word is followed, so therefore must have another "spiritual" meaning, is a weak attempt to avoid admitting that the statement really contains an error.

That is true in the real world, but of course some try to fantasize to avoid admitting errors in scripture.

[Lioness777]

[Replying to post 109 by Elijah John]

Thank you for your thoughtful beginning...I am delighted to be here!!!
I can see that this is going to be a lovely site to be in.

"How do you account for the verses that indicate Jesus would return in the lifetime of the NT authors, or the characters in the NT?"

My Question to you is simple...Israel? do you understand the history of this tiny state? and the history of how this state became what she is today?

Do you understand the Covenant that God had with his people and how he would bless as well as curse them during the establishment of this nation during the OT times?

Do you understand the plight that the Israelites had thruout their long history as wanderers, and hated people? and finally the catalyst of their coming to Israel and the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948?

Now, when you understand this history, and then read the whole of Mat 24, as well as all the prophetic utterances of Daniel, Ezekiel, and other prophets, Psalms, and all the books thruout the Bible, will you begin to understand just how close we are to Jesus's coming to gather his elect. (rapture)

The events of today that surround Israel and the mess that is going on in the Middle east is a KEY to the signs that we are in the last days.

Also keep your eyes and ears open to Russia, and China..and Trump. Do you really think Trump was elected by accident?

Nope...he is going to be the catalyst that will start probably ww3, as well as further God's plan to kick start the 7 year trib after the rapture..

So, keep an eye on these areas, ok...I tell you true, we are in the last days.

[marco]

So, keep an eye on these areas, ok...I tell you true, we are in the last days.

That's a good guess. Others guessed that when WW1 came we were in the last days. It is a little worrying that God has interfered in US politics.

The problem about the "signs" is that they are anything but specific. Wars and rumours of wars have happened on a regular basis. If God did have something to do with the Balfour Declaration that eventually gave Israel her troubled piece of territory in 1948, he certainly stirred up a hornet's nest.

One thing is sure; if the coming takes place in the Middle East, one must hope that Our Lord wears protective clothing. And a sword, I think, will be no match for the armaments there.

[Checkpoint]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Curious, which generation do you think he was talking about and why?

What I find curious about this is the several answers given by believers and unbelievers.

The word "generation", as used here and elsewhere by Jesus, has a meaning other than what nearly all assume.

A generation is that which has been generated by a progenitor. It can be a whole genealogy.

RESPONSE:

The word "generation", as used here and elsewhere by Jesus, has a meaning other than what nearly all assume.

No. Jesus used the plain meaning of words to say what he meant. "This generation" means "this generation."

Some fundamentalists and bible literalists try to avoid the end time prophecies of Jesus which say that:

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke by trying to argue when Jesus used the term this generation, he really didnt mean his generation.

But if we look at several other prophecies, it is shown that Jesus clearly meant his generation.

For example:

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him (to the high priest), You have said so. But I tell you,
From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 10:23 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

James 5: 7 Strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

Paul 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.* 16For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangels call and with the sound of Gods trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.

Thus, the high priest condemning Jesus will see the second coming, before the apostles visit all the towns in Israel, Jesus will come, etc.

All of these are within Jesus meaning of this generation.


Of course, it never happened because Jesus (or scripture) is in error!

Yes, Jesus did mean "this generation", not as we define it but as he does.

It is a term he uses elsewhere, and that is sufficient for me.

Those who are unaware of this or fail to take it into account are the ones in error, not Jesus or scripture.

The link below explains this issue far better than I can.

http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/thi ... lled.shtml

[marco]

Yes, Jesus did mean "this generation", not as we define it but as he does.
The link below explains this issue far better than I can.

http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/thi ... lled.shtml

This sounds like the excuse of a schoolboy. Of course we can take various meanings from the word "generation" but we then move into a statement that carries next to no meaning. The statement:


"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom "

tells us all we need to know. It is saying the same but it makes it clear that this generation does mean the one containing people who are alive. Nor is it a question of this interpretation or that one being right: the only possible interpretation is that Jesus meant people in his audience would be alive at the second coming. If we are desperate enough we can look for people who are today about 2000 years old.

[Lioness777]

[Replying to post 111 by Monta]

"That\'s a good guess. Others guessed that when WW1 came we were in the last days. It is a little worrying that God has interfered in US politics.

The problem about the \"signs\" is that they are anything but specific. Wars and rumours of wars have happened on a regular basis. If God did have something to do with the Balfour Declaration that eventually gave Israel her troubled piece of territory in 1948, he certainly stirred up a hornet\'s nest.

One thing is sure; if the coming takes place in the Middle East, one must hope that Our Lord wears protective clothing. And a sword, I think, will be no match for the armaments there."

Ok now..yes you are right. during the last 2,000 years, people have been waiting for the lord to come back. and being as He hasn't, then of course, there is going to be skepticism...but, the one major key that everyone did NOT foresee until the end of WW2 and the Jews returning back from almost extinction to their homeland and successfully making Isreal a state.

Now if you were a scholar of the history of the Jews, starting with the Abrahamic covenant by God that he was going to make Abrahams descendants as many as the sands on the beach, and then followed the HISTORY of the Jews to where they were, in 70 ad scattered all over the known world like a dog's breakfast, and hated all the way up to today, and is in the firing line of her surrounding neighbors such as Syria, Iran, Iraq and the Arabia, you would see that when God made a promise that he would regather his people to their promised land and it has happened, then you would not miss the obvious KEY to the start of the prophetic end times.

This has happened, and thus if you have been observant you find that where is all the mayhem happening? In the middle east...hmmmm funny isn't it that Israel is the target of these other countries...and the huge controversy of her being split...which isn't going to happen.

WW1 was the catalyst to start the ball rolling but of course the evangelists didn't have a clue what was going to happen nor did they even foresee Israel becoming a state, but if you looked at the marching of events leading UP to the time of Israel's statehood, you would planly see the steps God made to have this happen..and his promise to get his people back to the land that He made a promise to keep.

We definately are living in the end times because of the statehood of Israel, for God has kept his promise of gathering his people back to their land, and also has blessed Israel with abundance of fruits, and agriculture that once wasn't there...if you were to look at her history when the Palestinians squatted on this land. It's all right there in front of your face...The mention of Gog and Maygog..is China and Russia..all right there..and look whose rattling their sabers?

[polonius]

Lioness 777 claimed

We definately are living in the end times because of the statehood of Israel, for God has kept his promise of gathering his people back to their land, and also has blessed Israel with abundance of fruits, and agriculture that once wasn't there...if you were to look at her history when the Palestinians squatted on this land. It's all right there in front of your face...The mention of Gog and Maygog..is China and Russia..all right there..and look whose rattling their sabers?

RESPONSE:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewpop.html
Jewish Population (2014)

Country Population % of Jewry
Israel 6,103,200 42.9%

RESPONSE: Sorry, Lioness. You are not even close. Less than half of the world's Jews live in the Promised Land. Why didn't you check this out before posting?

Incidentally, perhaps you would want to look up the expression Promised Land.

The promise was first made to Abraham (Genesis 15:18-21), then confirmed to his son Isaac (Genesis 26:3), and then to Isaac's son Jacob (Genesis 28:13), Abraham's grandson. The promised land was described in terms of the territory from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates river (Exodus 23:31). A smaller area of former Canaanite land and land east of the Jordan River was conquered and occupied by their descendants, the Israelites, after Moses led the Exodus out of Egypt (Numbers 34:1-12), and this occupation was interpreted as God's fulfilment of the promise (Deuteronomy 1:8). Moses anticipated that God might subsequently give the Israelites land reflecting the boundaries of God's original promise, if they were obedient to the covenant (Deuteronomy 19:8-9).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promised_Land

Like many things in the Bible, the story remains a fiction.

In fact, the first seven books of the Bible are now considered by archaeologists to be Hebrew folklore collected in 800 to 700 BC.

[Checkpoint]

Yes, Jesus did mean "this generation", not as we define it but as he does.
The link below explains this issue far better than I can.

http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/thi ... lled.shtml

This sounds like the excuse of a schoolboy. Of course we can take various meanings from the word "generation" but we then move into a statement that carries next to no meaning. The statement:


"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom "

tells us all we need to know. It is saying the same but it makes it clear that this generation does mean the one containing people who are alive. Nor is it a question of this interpretation or that one being right: the only possible interpretation is that Jesus meant people in his audience would be alive at the second coming. If we are desperate enough we can look for people who are today about 2000 years old.

What the link presented was not an excuse but the logical working through of what Jesus said about "this generation".

Too bad that you and others insist on taking the English meaning of "generation" and dismiss and trivialise a common Biblical usage of the term.

[Freethinker43]

I'd argue that the " Second Coming" was never meant to be taken literally in the first place. The " Second Coming" might just as well mean the influence that Jesus has over one's life ( the teachings he purportedly propagated at the first coming) via whatever church one happens to belong to. I know that that's not how most Christians see it, but it is how I view it.