Who created evil spirits!

[DanieltheDragon]

Who created evil spirits, the snake, the devil, and various other malevolent forces?

Why would such a being create such things?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

It is not so bad if God did not know the abominations he would become, but would God be so ignorant? So incompetent? Would he really be that clueless about what he was creating?

What evidence do you have that he was any of these things? What if anything in my post implied the above?

God was perfectly aware of the implications of creating free moral agents, that he dignified them with choice and the privacy of making them without His interference is, in my opinion testimony to his integrity and righteousness as well as his forethought, wisdom and infinite benevolence.

JW


VIDEO Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?
[youtube][/youtube]

According to the video, and JW belief, if God had foreknowledge of the fall of Adam and Eve, then God could be accused of being "unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel, and foolish." On the other hand, if it is true that God DID NOT have foreknowledge of the fall, then God FAILED to achieve the result He intended to achieve when he created Adam and Eve. In fact this would mean that God FAILED to achieve the intended result when Satan and the others rebelled against Him. So we are left with two possibilities. One is that God is "unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel, and foolish." The other is that God is and can be a failure. Pick your poison.

[JehovahsWitness]

It is not so bad if God did not know the abominations he would become, but would God be so ignorant? So incompetent? Would he really be that clueless about what he was creating?

What evidence do you have that he was any of these things? What if anything in my post implied the above?

God was perfectly aware of the implications of creating free moral agents, that he dignified them with choice and the privacy of making them without His interference is, in my opinion testimony to his integrity and righteousness as well as his forethought, wisdom and infinite benevolence.

JW


VIDEO Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?
[youtube][/youtube]

[...] if it is true that God DID NOT have foreknowledge of the fall, then God FAILED to achieve the result He intended to achieve when he created Adam and Eve.

Well all I would say to that is "it aint over 'til the fat lady sings". We would effectively have to be at the end of time in order to declare that God failed in his objectives.

# QUESTION: What was God's purpose for mankind?

God's purpose for mankind was that a perfect human race, all descendants of Adam and Eve, live in a garden like paradise on this our planet earth. While it is true, there has been a delay in the realization of that purpose, that does not mean that it will not be achieved. Indeed arguably, if bible symbolism is to be believed, that purpose was scheduled to be fully accomplished on the 7th symbolic "day" (Sabbath) which hasn't yet ended.

In short, there is still time and bible prophecy indicates that this earth will be transformed into a paradise inhabited by the children of Adam and Eve, living in perfect health on this our planet earth. And that right on time! The heavy lady singeth not.

JW

[ttruscott]

On the other hand, if it is true that God DID NOT have foreknowledge of the fall, then God FAILED to achieve the result He intended to achieve when he created Adam and Eve.

You have not stated the result He intended to achieve when he created them but assumed a result that would seem to support your bias without stating it.

At least one sect of Christian doctrine claims the result HE desired from their creation was for them to choose by their free will to either become willing to be righteous and holy by accepting HIS deity and HIS promises of election and salvation
OR
to take the chance on becoming HIS eternal enemy by putting their faith in him being a false god and a liar about his deity, election and salvation, heaven and hell.

The choices were made by our free will and separated all of those created in HIS image into HIS elect children and the reprobate illegitimate children.

This was the first result HE wanted and it was achieved just fine.

In fact this would mean that God FAILED to achieve the intended result when Satan and the others rebelled against Him.

This was not a failure since their free will choice to be eternally evil was HIS method of separating out from all of HIS creation those who would never accept HIS deity. Result achieved, not failed.

So we are left with two possibilities. One is that God is "unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel, and foolish." The other is that God is and can be a failure. Pick your poison.

The first possibility that HE is cruel is based upon the idea that HE knew they would sin but created them anyway. The cruelty of the idea is better found in thinking that HE created Satan knowing his sin and his end in hell but created him anyway... This is indeed too cruel to accept so in fact many do not accept it at all and claim HE obviously then did not know the results of their free will decisions, an argument based upon HIS claim to know all that HE has created, Acts 15:18, so if HE did not create the results of our free will decisions but let us create them for ourselves, HE did not know them.

The second possibility that HE failed to achieve some unnamed result by creating us while not knowing of our fall, does not survive scrutiny since the third possibility that the named result of that creation was perfectly achieved from the Christian pov was not considered.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 42 by JehovahsWitness]

Well all I would say to that is "it aint over 'til the fat lady sings". We would effectively have to be at the end of time in order to declare that God failed in his objectives.

So you are suggesting that God did not "fail," because everything will be set right at the end of time. Because everything is going according to plan, just as God always knew it would. Because with His perfect foreknowledge He always knew Adam and Eve would fail, and that Satan would rebel. And so God really IS "unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel, and foolish." Because failure that was always a part of the plan from the very beginning is not failure at all.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 43 by ttruscott]

You have not stated the result He intended to achieve when he created them but assumed a result that would seem to support your bias without stating it.

The question before us is whether or not God had foreknowledge that Adam and Eve and Satan, et al, would fail. If so, and if God is omnipotent and does not fail, then God achieved exactly the result He intended to achieve. Which indicates that God is "unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel, and foolish." I would add psychotic and vain to that list. But that's just me.

On the other hand, if God did not have foreknowledge of these failures in His intentions then God is a God who is subject to failure and ultimately is not in control of the way events turn out.

So the real question is, which of these God's do you worship?

At least one sect of Christian doctrine claims the result HE desired from their creation was for them to choose by their free will to either become willing to be righteous and holy by accepting HIS deity and HIS promises of election and salvation
OR
to take the chance on becoming HIS eternal enemy by putting their faith in him being a false god and a liar about his deity, election and salvation, heaven and hell.

Except as I have been pointing out, nowhere does the Bible expressly declare God has offered humankind complete free will. If God is omnipotent and omniscient then God has made His plans and everything will go exactly according to that plan. Everything is already predetermined. On the other hand, if humankind has complete free will then even God does not know how things will turn out. And that God is subject to failing to achieve His intentions.

This was not a failure since their free will choice to be eternally evil was HIS method of separating out from all of HIS creation those who would never accept HIS deity. Result achieved, not failed.

Please show where God has indicated that humans have such complete free will? The Bible in fact indicates that all of the events of our lives are already written in God's book. Should God be subject to using white-out?

The first possibility that HE is cruel is based upon the idea that HE knew they would sin but created them anyway. The cruelty of the idea is better found in thinking that HE created Satan knowing his sin and his end in hell but created him anyway... This is indeed too cruel to accept so in fact many do not accept it at all and claim HE obviously then did not know the results of their free will decisions, an argument based upon HIS claim to know all that HE has created, Acts 15:18, so if HE did not create the results of our free will decisions but let us create them for ourselves, HE did not know them.

This is of course EXACTLY what the Bible indicates. You find this concept of God unacceptable and so you choose not to accept it. All I can say is, you need to get a different Bible then.

The second possibility that HE failed to achieve some unnamed result by creating us while not knowing of our fall, does not survive scrutiny since the third possibility that the named result of that creation was perfectly achieved from the Christian pov was not considered.

The Christian pov is that if God did it, it must be perfect. Which seems to indicate that God is perfectly "unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel, and foolish." And perhaps psychotic and vain as well.

There actually is a third choice however. And that is that this is all nonsense, poorly contrived and conceived of by ancient people for whom logic was not their strongest suit. But that would mean that the entire edifice of Christianity is nothing more than nonsense. Which would mean that billions of Christians are faithfully subscribing to a belief that is nothing but nonsense. Which would put Christianity and Christians in exactly the same position as you have already assumed that every devoted believer of every non Christian religious belief is already firmly ensconced in.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 2 by tam]

Hi tam,
I think the reason this topic poses a problem for Christianity is because it questions the sovereignty of God. If God has total control over everything as my former Baptist
faith teaches, and many other denominations as well, then logically you cannot get away from the fact that the potential for evil was obviously given to Satan and his horde by God the creator of everything the moment of their creation. The big question then becomes why did God create a creature (angel) with the capacity to do horrible things and lead billions of people to Hell?

[postroad]

It is not so bad if God did not know the abominations he would become, but would God be so ignorant? So incompetent? Would he really be that clueless about what he was creating?

What evidence do you have that he was any of these things? What if anything in my post implied the above?

God was perfectly aware of the implications of creating free moral agents, that he dignified them with choice and the privacy of making them without His interference is, in my opinion testimony to his integrity and righteousness as well as his forethought, wisdom and infinite benevolence.

JW


VIDEO Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?
[youtube][/youtube]

[...] if it is true that God DID NOT have foreknowledge of the fall, then God FAILED to achieve the result He intended to achieve when he created Adam and Eve.

Well all I would say to that is "it aint over 'til the fat lady sings". We would effectively have to be at the end of time in order to declare that God failed in his objectives.

# QUESTION: What was God's purpose for mankind?

God's purpose for mankind was that a perfect human race, all descendants of Adam and Eve, live in a garden like paradise on this our planet earth. While it is true, there has been a delay in the realization of that purpose, that does not mean that it will not be achieved. Indeed arguably, if bible symbolism is to be believed, that purpose was scheduled to be fully accomplished on the 7th symbolic "day" (Sabbath) which hasn't yet ended.

In short, there is still time and bible prophecy indicates that this earth will be transformed into a paradise inhabited by the children of Adam and Eve, living in perfect health on this our planet earth. And that right on time! The heavy lady singeth not.

JW

Does this make Jesus plan B? If that is true, how would you interpret this texts?

Ephesians 1:4

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Acts 4:27-28New International Version (NIV)

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

[onewithhim]

It is not so bad if God did not know the abominations he would become, but would God be so ignorant? So incompetent? Would he really be that clueless about what he was creating?

What evidence do you have that he was any of these things? What if anything in my post implied the above?

God was perfectly aware of the implications of creating free moral agents, that he dignified them with choice and the privacy of making them without His interference is, in my opinion testimony to his integrity and righteousness as well as his forethought, wisdom and infinite benevolence.

JW


VIDEO Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?
[youtube][/youtube]

According to the video, and JW belief, if God had foreknowledge of the fall of Adam and Eve, then God could be accused of being "unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel, and foolish." On the other hand, if it is true that God DID NOT have foreknowledge of the fall, then God FAILED to achieve the result He intended to achieve when he created Adam and Eve. In fact this would mean that God FAILED to achieve the intended result when Satan and the others rebelled against Him. So we are left with two possibilities. One is that God is "unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel, and foolish." The other is that God is and can be a failure. Pick your poison.

God did not FAIL to achieve the result He intended to achieve. It is still to be realized. He is in no sense a failure.

Would you mind reading the post, "Paradise on Earth"? That shows exactly what God is going to do to ensure His will from the beginning has not been a failure. His purpose will be realized.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 42 by JehovahsWitness]

Well all I would say to that is "it aint over 'til the fat lady sings". We would effectively have to be at the end of time in order to declare that God failed in his objectives.

So you are suggesting that God did not "fail," because everything will be set right at the end of time. Because everything is going according to plan, just as God always knew it would. Because with His perfect foreknowledge He always knew Adam and Eve would fail, and that Satan would rebel. And so God really IS "unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel, and foolish." Because failure that was always a part of the plan from the very beginning is not failure at all.

No, ToN....I don't think you even bothered to listen to the video. You are going further with your same accusations, which are ANSWERED IN THE VIDEO.

hey, watch the video

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 2 by tam]

Hi tam,
I think the reason this topic poses a problem for Christianity is because it questions the sovereignty of God. If God has total control over everything as my former Baptist
faith teaches, and many other denominations as well, then logically you cannot get away from the fact that the potential for evil was obviously given to Satan and his horde by God the creator of everything the moment of their creation. The big question then becomes why did God create a creature (angel) with the capacity to do horrible things and lead billions of people to Hell?

Very good observation. The answer to the big question is that he did not. Having given all beings free will, the angel who became "Satan" was free to choose to do either bad things or good things. He chose on his own to do bad things. People don't NEED to follow Satan to destruction. And God has given us His Bible so that we can learn the truth, and we can choose to follow Him rather than Satan.