Should all people be blamed for Adam's sin?

[polonius]

At the beginning of the Bible, we are told that Adam and Eve sinned. ("Original Sin")

And all future generations inherited their guilt.

Is that true?

And wasn't that rather unjust of God?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 28 by dio9]



[center]

Some anxious people would rather be a frog.[/center]

but are we not in fact alienated ?
From each other individuals tribes nations , God if you will?

I do not feel alienated ... I am close to a lot of nice people.
I am not part of what I describe as a "tribe"... I live in North America.

I live in a nation.. I'm a part of that.. I vote, and pay taxes and so on...

I don't at all feel alienated from any god or goddess. I'd have to be demonstrated that there are such things so that I could even START to feel "alienated" from one of those.

Is there any other species that suffers the existential angst we do?

As far as I know, we are the only species that can do math, and write poetry, too.

Ever seen an anxious frog ?

Or one who writes poetry and does math?

No . There is something about us that stands us apart. Not in a good way .

Some people don't like math or poetry.
True.


Maybe some would rather be a calm kind of frog.

Its been recognized from the beginning of our race.

You seem to have a lot of historical data about what humans have "recognized".
I'm skeptical of your incredible knowledge claim.

We have set ourselves up outside the garden .

If you are talking about the "garden of Eden", that's just a story.
I was born on Earth. That's real and not JUST a story in a book.

Born in that "garden" or on that "planet" like every other human being that I know. Call the place you were born in anything you like.
Eden sounds good.

And I think you should read the Genesis story again if you insist on preaching to us about it. You got it wrong.

No we should not be blamed for leaving the garden but leave the garden we did.

If you are still talking about the Garden of Eden, the story goes that the God threw Adam and Eve out of that.

Nobody "left".
According to the story, they were kicked out of Eden.

And now what is our desire? Its to get back to the garden.

CORRECTION:

Do you actually speak for everyone?
I don't think so.

Some people don't believe that the Garden of Eden was ever a real place.
There's nothing to go BACK to.

Live your life.
Reality is real.

[ttruscott]

This post seems to have taken a turn to apologetics from its original theological/doctrinal question. In response to the OP:

As Adam was the federal representative of mankind, the status of guilt was transferred to all mankind on account of his choice.

I know 1 Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. is interpreted to mean that "just as Adam was the one man who performed a single act that affected the entire world, so also Christ was one man whose one act affected all humanity. Adam was a type because as he caused death that came upon all by his sin,

referring to an interpretation of Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-- but I contend that this verse does not say what the commentator on 1 Co 15:22 claims it says that the death that came from Adam came from his sin since it clearly says it was because all had sinned.

When The church fathers accepted our being created each by each on earth at conception (the creation of the soul theory) or birth (traducianism) they had no other way to have us 'created' at birth as sinner but to blame Adam. Because they rejected our pre-earth existence where we had the opportunity to chose to be elect, elect who sinned or reprobate hating GOD, by our own free will, they were stuck with the blasphemous 'mystery' that GOD who cannot do evil, created us evil in Adam so we inherited his sin without impugning HIS holiness nor HIS love.

In repudiation of this blasphemy and accepting our pre-earth existence with a free will as possible, I look at Romans 5:12 that when Adam sinned, he brought death into the world, a death to all sinners born into this world for all humans had sinned already, pre-earth. But with 2,000 years of the blasphemy being accepted so that pce options are not even noticed let alone rejected, the feeling grew that the blasphemy must have merit as few could admit they have been so foolish and against their GOD as to believe a blasphemy.

I'm sure you know the verses that GOD is holy and loving and therefore cannot do evil as poisonous water cannot flow from a well of pure life giving water so please apply this doctrine to this verse in which it is accepted to teach that GOD did not make us innocent with a free will like HE made Adam and Eve (which proved HE could have done so) but made us, HIS future Bride !! as corrupt and loathsome, fully evil and unsaveable without HIS intervention FOR NO STATED REASON !!! by putting us under Adam's federal headship???

I contend that this verse clearly teaches that we inherit Adam's death when we, as sinners who all have sinned, are born into his line of humans SO THAT as we are all in one death so Christ need only die one time for all of us and not once for each of us.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 10 by polonius.advice]

If something is not witnessed then there is no proof that it occurred. It's called reality checking.

That cannot always be true, can it? Isn't the proof the reality of what has occurred? If I didn't witness someone spilling the milk in my kitchen, does that mean it didn't occur?

RESPONSE:

In the case you describe, you have the evidence of spilled milk. But you have no evidence that "someone" spilled it. Do you have a cat that you periodically give a saucer of milk to?

[polonius]

I'm sure you know the verses that GOD is holy and loving and therefore cannot do evil.....

RESPONSE: I also know the verses where God directs the slaughter of unbelievers' children and infants.

I contend that this verse clearly teaches that we inherit Adam's death when we, as sinners who all have sinned, are born into his line of humans SO THAT as we are all in one death so Christ need only die one time for all of us and not once for each of us.

RESPONSE: So you think that God insists on the stain of Adam's "original sin" being borne by infants who will not have existed for thousands of years? If we execute a murder, should we then execute all his children and their children?

[ttruscott]

We have set ourselves up outside the garden . No we should not be blamed for leaving the garden but leave the garden we did. And now what is our desire? Its to get back to the garden.

All but two of us were never in the garden to begin with. And what is this high value set upon living in a garden, with fruit trees and the odd reptile? For the old bearded brutes of ancient times an oasis was heaven, but they had no concept of fresh running water miraculously appearing from a tap and heat obtained at the turn of a switch.

It is an unwitnessed, figurative account; an ancient man's guess at what God did to start things off.

...or rather descriptions of the garden are parallels to our (and Adam and Eve as the first sinful elect to be moved here) home in Sheol and what we lost in our idolatry of the non-elect who rejected YHWH's deity. The parallel is not directly attributed though because in the Earthly garden (but not in Sheol), Adam and Eve arrived in a sinful state (or none of the Christian interpretations are logical) but holds for a hint of what Spiritual life holds for us when we enter the heavenly marriage with the whole universe as our playground.

Who wants to return to open air living, with fig leaves for garments?

implies an unhappiness with such living, symbolic or not, but any person in extreme happiness will by that fact be happy where ever they are without the boredom or supposed deficiencies of the place. The air might be open but the fig leaves (symbol for any (false) religion that covers or hides our sinfulness and our need to become righteous) will be gone as our righteousness will be perfectly established by then.

[ttruscott]

I'm sure you know the verses that GOD is holy and loving and therefore cannot do evil.....

RESPONSE: I also know the verses where God directs the slaughter of unbelievers' children and infants.

I contend that this verse clearly teaches that we inherit Adam's death when we, as sinners who all have sinned, are born into his line of humans SO THAT as we are all in one death so Christ need only die one time for all of us and not once for each of us.

RESPONSE: So you think that God insists on the stain of Adam's "original sin" being borne by infants who will not have existed for thousands of years? If we execute a murder, should we then execute all his children and their children?

You must be pulling my leg...for 5 years I've been contending and arguing over and over against contradictors that everyone in creation were all created at the same time over a minimum of 6,000 years ago and newborns are people who are being fed into the human system as they are needed for the sinful elect to become redeemed and righteous? That only sinners from this existence previous to earth are born as humans and so all, no matter what age, are under the sentence of death for their sin?? That there are no new people being created at all (and never has been) but newborns are just people recently chosen to live as human...??? You missed all this?

My theology denies 'original sin' as an inherited sin from Adam (but I suppose the constant repetition about this verse as meaning original sin affect both sides of the argument) and as I have clearly stated here I believe it teaches our being put under his sentence of death, not his sin, so that Christ will only have to die once for all sinful elect.

It is very frustrating when someone knee jerks a response when I am contending for exactly what they contend for...missing that I am decidedly not orthodox. It means someone did not read carefully.

[postroad]

I'm sure you know the verses that GOD is holy and loving and therefore cannot do evil.....

RESPONSE: I also know the verses where God directs the slaughter of unbelievers' children and infants.

I contend that this verse clearly teaches that we inherit Adam's death when we, as sinners who all have sinned, are born into his line of humans SO THAT as we are all in one death so Christ need only die one time for all of us and not once for each of us.

RESPONSE: So you think that God insists on the stain of Adam's "original sin" being borne by infants who will not have existed for thousands of years? If we execute a murder, should we then execute all his children and their children?

. Only if we want to more Godlike.

2 Samuel 21:1-14New International Version (NIV)

The Gibeonites Avenged
21 During the reign of David, there was a famine for three successive years; so David sought the face of the Lord. The Lord said, “It is on account of Saul and his blood-stained house; it is because he put the Gibeonites to death.�

2 The king summoned the Gibeonites and spoke to them. (Now the Gibeonites were not a part of Israel but were survivors of the Amorites; the Israelites had sworn to spare them, but Saul in his zeal for Israel and Judah had tried to annihilate them.) 3 David asked the Gibeonites, “What shall I do for you? How shall I make atonement so that you will bless the Lord’s inheritance?�

4 The Gibeonites answered him, “We have no right to demand silver or gold from Saul or his family, nor do we have the right to put anyone in Israel to death.�

“What do you want me to do for you?� David asked.

5 They answered the king, “As for the man who destroyed us and plotted against us so that we have been decimated and have no place anywhere in Israel, 6 let seven of his male descendants be given to us to be killed and their bodies exposed before the Lord at Gibeah of Saul—the Lord’s chosen one.�

So the king said, “I will give them to you.�

7 The king spared Mephibosheth son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, because of the oath before the Lord between David and Jonathan son of Saul. 8 But the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Aiah’s daughter Rizpah, whom she had borne to Saul, together with the five sons of Saul’s daughter Merab,[a] whom she had borne to Adriel son of Barzillai the Meholathite. 9 He handed them over to the Gibeonites, who killed them and exposed their bodies on a hill before the Lord. All seven of them fell together; they were put to death during the first days of the harvest, just as the barley harvest was beginning.

10 Rizpah daughter of Aiah took sackcloth and spread it out for herself on a rock. From the beginning of the harvest till the rain poured down from the heavens on the bodies, she did not let the birds touch them by day or the wild animals by night. 11 When David was told what Aiah’s daughter Rizpah, Saul’s concubine, had done, 12 he went and took the bones of Saul and his son Jonathan from the citizens of Jabesh Gilead. (They had stolen their bodies from the public square at Beth Shan, where the Philistines had hung them after they struck Saul down on Gilboa.) 13 David brought the bones of Saul and his son Jonathan from there, and the bones of those who had been killed and exposed were gathered up.

14 They buried the bones of Saul and his son Jonathan in the tomb of Saul’s father Kish, at Zela in Benjamin, and did everything the king commanded. After that, God answered prayer in behalf of the land.

[polonius]

If we would be more "God-like" by condemning and punishing completely innocent children, perhaps we need to reconsider our basic concept about the nature of God?

Perhaps our basic concept of God is seriously flawed.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 37 by polonius.advice]
Maybe? Concidering that most people lived from one harvest till the next, how many children do you suppose died of hunger during three years of famine?

[ttruscott]

If we would be more "God-like" by condemning and punishing completely innocent children, perhaps we need to reconsider our basic concept about the nature of God?

Perhaps our basic concept of God is seriously flawed.

It is your concept of Christian doctrine that is flawed since the Big Three churches contend there are no innocent children... None are good, all are guilty and death is the wages for sin.