If you don't believe the Bible.

[postroad]

Christians will often insist that certain texts can't be understood to actually mean what is plainly stated. Given enough believers I imagine that most of the Bible would be in dispute. The question is, why should the sceptic believe the Bible if Christianity does not.[/i]

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 28 by JehovahsWitness]

But the question should really be whether or not you believe your god is capable of having immoral or evil standards? Or do you define your god as being good and righteous by default therefore no matter what he commands people to do, it must be a morally good action?

Yes, that is exactly how I define my God (Jehovah) to be. I worship the God of the bible and believe Him absolutely to be entirely righteous and unfailingly good.

Jehovah's Witness

[TheBeardedDude]

[Replying to post 31 by JehovahsWitness]

Then you can't objectively say that your god doesn't command people to do evil or immoral things because you have a contradictory definition of moral and good.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 31 by JehovahsWitness]

Then you can't objectively say that your god doesn't command people to do evil or immoral things because you have a contradictory definition of moral and good.

One is rarely objective about someone that you love. I wasn't born a Jehovah's Witness nor did i come to this position without examination of the facts and an objective analysis of the available information. I do not believe I am incapable of honestly assessing information even now, but then who does?

[TheBeardedDude]

[Replying to post 33 by JehovahsWitness]

You appear to be dodging my point. Moral, immoral, good, evil, right, and wrong are all words that are devoid of meaning in your belief system because you apply a different standard to your god than you do to any and every other moral actor. You can't simply make immoral or evil actions moral and good by defining them as such when your god does them. That is hypocritical.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 33 by JehovahsWitness]

You appear to be dodging my point. Moral, immoral, good, evil, right, and wrong are all words that are devoid of meaning in your belief system because you apply a different standard to your god than you do to any and every other moral actor. You can't simply make immoral or evil actions moral and good by defining them as such when your god does them. That is hypocritical.

No all those words mean something in my belief system or else we wouldn't use them . They might not mean the same thing to me as they do to you (they are all objective and relative anyway) but they do indeed have a meaning in "my belief system". For Jehovah's Witnesses God sets the perfect standard of what is to be judged as what is "good, moral right" or "evil and wrong". He, in our view, decides where the bar is and everyone without exception is measured against that bar.

You can't simply make immoral or evil actions moral and good by defining them as such when your god does them.

Yes I can. I can define anything any way I like, who are you? The definition police? One person might (for whatever reason) define homosexuality as good and moral another as immoral and bad, they are free to do that. You only have the option of agreeing or disagreeing. If I say I consider XYZ as "immoral" and "moral" I don't even have to say why, that's just the way it is, I do get to do that.

That is hypocritical

No it's not. It would be hypocritical if I claimed to live by a certain standard but didn't actual do so. That my standards don't meet yours isn't hypocritical, is just choice.


JW

[TheBeardedDude]

[Replying to post 33 by JehovahsWitness]

You appear to be dodging my point. Moral, immoral, good, evil, right, and wrong are all words that are devoid of meaning in your belief system because you apply a different standard to your god than you do to any and every other moral actor. You can't simply make immoral or evil actions moral and good by defining them as such when your god does them. That is hypocritical.

No all those words mean something in my belief system or else we wouldn't use them . They might not mean the same thing to me as they do to you (they are all objective and relative anyway) but they do indeed have a meaning in "my belief system".

For Jehovah's Witnesses God sets the perfect standard of what is to be judged as what is "good, moreal right" or "evil and wrong". He, in our view, decides where the bar is and everyone without exception is measured against that bar.

You can't simply make immoral or evil actions moral and good by defining them as such when your god does them.


Yes I can. I can define anything any way I like. You only have the option as agreeing or disagreeing with me. If I say I consider XYZ as "immoral" and "moral" I don't even have to say why, that's just the way it is. All you can do is agree or disagree.

That is hypocritical

No it's not. It would be hypocritical if I claimed to live by a certain standard but didn't actual do so. What my standards don't meet yours isn't hypocritical, is just choice.


JW

"Yes I can. I can define anything any way I like."

"No it's not."

Your views on morality are a textbook definition of hypocritical.

Your god kills people because they made him angry (the flood for instance) = moral

A person kills people because they made him angry = immoral



Selectively redefining words when applying them to your god doesn't make its actions good or moral nor does it take away any immoral or evil actions. It means that you are being a hypocrite.

[JehovahsWitness]

Your views on morality are a textbook definition of hypocritical.

No they are not. It would only be hypocritical if I were to claim one thing and do another. God himself could be considered hypocritical if he were to claim one thing and do something contrary to that claim. However, the God fo the bible (Jehovah) proclaims Himself to be the supreme ruler, of the Universe, law maker, judge and exectioner. He acts completly in line with that. At no point do I believe He gave anyone else such authority. So the rule is He gets to do certain things, by virtue of being our Creator, that others don't.

That rule is applied, without discrimination or distinction, equally to all living things.

Your god kills people because they made him angry (the flood for instance) = moral
A person kills people because they made him angry = immoral

Yes, that's exactly right (see above)

Selectively redefining words when applying them to your god doesn't make its actions good or moral nor does it take away any immoral or evil actions.

Selectivity is not a bad thing; Not everyone has the right to do the same thing.

You sleep with your wife = commendable.
*I* sleep with your wife = adultery.

It means that you are being a hypocrite

No it does not. Being a hypocrit would be saying publically, "Everybody gets to sleep with my wife" and then secretly blocking them from doing so. I would be a hypocrite if I "said" I believe God makes his own rules and didn't live according to my beliefs.

Since I live in accord to what I claim to believe I am not a hypocrite.


JW

[TheBeardedDude]

Your views on morality are a textbook definition of hypocritical.

No they are not. It would only be hypocritical if I were to claim one thing and do another. God himself could be considered hypocritical if he were to claim one thing and do something contrary to that claim. However, the God fo the bible (Jehovah) proclaims Himself to be the supreme ruler, of the Universe, law maker, judge and exectioner. He acts completly in line with that. At no point do I believe He gave anyone else such authority. So the rule is He gets to do certain things, by virtue of being our Creator, that others don't.

That rule is applied, without discrimination or distinction, equally to all living things.

Your god kills people because they made him angry (the flood for instance) = moral
A person kills people because they made him angry = immoral

Yes, that's exactly right (see above) Not everyone has the right to do the same thing.

You sleep with your wife = commendable.
*I* sleep with your wife = adultery.

Selectively redefining words when applying them to your god doesn't make its actions good or moral nor does it take away any immoral or evil actions.

Well like I said, I get to do what I like, including decide by what standards I view something as moral or immoral. You get to say you don't like it.

It means that you are being a hypocrite

No it does not. I would be a hypocrite if I "said" I believe God makes his own rules and didn't live accordingly. Since I live in accord to what I claim to believe I am not a hypocrite. JW

You apply a double standard to your god vs humans when it comes to morality. That makes you a hypocrite because YOU are the one applying the double standard.

[JehovahsWitness]

You apply a double standard to your god vs humans when it comes to morality.

#QUESTION: Isn't implying God can do things that it would be wrong for a human to do a "double standard"

No, the standard (the rule) is the same. The rule is as follows: "God gets to do what he wants, if he says its moral it's " That's the standard. That same standard, I believe, applies to everyone, including God.

Is the rule "The only one that gets to sleep with my wife, is ME" a "double standard" or just "a standard"?

A "DOUBLE" standard would be applying the rule ""The only one that gets to sleep with my wife, is ME" and "The only one that gets to sleep with my wife, is ME and the Postman" at the same time.


If the standard is "every individual can do what he has the RIGHT to do", then God having the right to do Something that humans have no right to do, is not a "double standard" its one standard applied equally to different individuals.

[postroad]

Did God command the Israelites to sacrifice their firstborn? Why yes he did.

Ezekiel 20:25-26New International Version (NIV)

25 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live; 26 I defiled them through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.’

Although he hotly denies doing so here.

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

. It seems he doth protest to much? So is it possible to believe two contradictory statements?