If there is a god he must be perfect.

[DanieltheDragon]

From another thread

The next step is is that if there is a God He can be nothing less than than perfect goodness, perfect truth

Why assume this?

[Willum]

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

Well, let's take it down a mite:
If there is a President he must be perfect.

He makes a decision.
90% Agree.
10% Disagree.

Unless everyone agrees, it isn't perfect, is it?
Maybe it is.

Now God is infinitely more removed from us that the President.
That presents an infinite number of opportunities for us to perceive God's decisions as imperfect, when they are truly incomprehensible, and perfect.

[Plumbus Grumbo]

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

Well, let's take it down a mite:
If there is a President he must be perfect.

He makes a decision.
90% Agree.
10% Disagree.

Unless everyone agrees, it isn't perfect, is it?
Maybe it is.

Now God is infinitely more removed from us that the President.
That presents an infinite number of opportunities for us to perceive God's decisions as imperfect, when they are truly incomprehensible, and perfect.

No one need agree with perfection for perfection to be perfect and worthy of the title.

[Plumbus Grumbo]

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

Well, let's take it down a mite:
If there is a President he must be perfect.

He makes a decision.
90% Agree.
10% Disagree.

Unless everyone agrees, it isn't perfect, is it?
Maybe it is.

Now God is infinitely more removed from us that the President.
That presents an infinite number of opportunities for us to perceive God's decisions as imperfect, when they are truly incomprehensible, and perfect.

No one need agree with perfection for perfection to be perfect and worthy of the title.

[postroad]

A perfect God could and would not create. He would be complete in himself and have no desires or needs. We are not perfect because we are dependant. We are susceptible. We desire. Man that is pretty deep. Must be time for some sleep.

[JehovahsWitness]

A perfect God could and would not create.

On the contrary: Creativity is Imagination + ability. Logically then a perfect God would have an endless imagination and limitless power, so a perfect God would, by definition be endlessly creative.

. He would be complete in himself and have no desires .

Desire is just a stronger word for "wants" or what a person or wishes. A perfect God would indeed have a will since it is a part of intelligence and imagination (already mentioned). A robot has no desire because it cannot conceive or grasp the idea of things in the abstract. It cannot imagine that which doesn't yet exist and therefore cannot plan or desire for something to happen in the absence of direct input and programming. For God to be perfect He must be self willed, "I want this to happen or this to be" which is another way of expressing desires.

. He would be complete in himself and have no ... needs. We are not perfect because we are dependant. We are susceptible. We desire.

This is where as humans we make an assumption that doesn't apply from God. It is correct to say God has no needs, that he is indeed complete in himself "needing" Nothing. For humans, needs and desires are so closely linked we think of them as synonyms but they are not. While our desire are tied to our dependence 'I want [desire] a glass of water" because I'm thirsty. I'm thirsty because my body is signalling to me what it needs to survive. So "I want a glass of water" is the equivalent in real terms of "I need a glass of water". For this reason we find it hard to conceive of a God that wants to do something even though he doesn't need to. But even with humans people that don't need to work because they are rich often still go to work because they find pleasure and satisfaction in the activity for its own sake.

# OBJECTION: But if God finds joy and satisfaction in doing Something, doesn't that mean that he lacked the joy it procured before thus rendering him dependent and incomplete prior to the activity?

No. If you have an infinite number and add +1 to that number what have you got? An infinite number. God is complete (perfect), he cannot be MORE complete (plus +1) but that doesn't mean you cannot add +1! A perfect God would be able to have a desire because he has an imagination. When he fulfills that desire he can be satisfied (+1) that satisfaction didn't fill a lack but did added to the whole.




JW





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To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

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[bjs]

An infinite Being would have to be either perfectly good or perfectly evil. Since the Being is infinite every aspect of the Being would be expanded infinitely. A little bit of evil (cruelty, spite, etc.) would endlessly increase. A little bit of goodness (love, compassion, etc.) would be endlessly increased. Either goodness or evil would completely overtake the nature of the Being.

However, an infinite Being could not be entirely evil. Evil requires some level of goodness. Cruelty requires at least some courage. Spite requires a form of admiration. Works of creation require creativity. If Plato was right then existence itself is a kind of goodness (that which is is better than that which is not). Evil is a twisting of what is good, not a thing in itself. So a Being cannot be infinitely evil.

For an infinite Being to exist, it must exist in perfect goodness.

[Plumbus Grumbo]

An infinite Being would have to be either perfectly good or perfectly evil. Since the Being is infinite every aspect of the Being would be expanded infinitely. A little bit of evil (cruelty, spite, etc.) would endlessly increase. A little bit of goodness (love, compassion, etc.) would be endlessly increased. Either goodness or evil would completely overtake the nature of the Being.

However, an infinite Being could not be entirely evil. Evil requires some level of goodness. Cruelty requires at least some courage. Spite requires a form of admiration. Works of creation require creativity. If Plato was right then existence itself is a kind of goodness (that which is is better than that which is not). Evil is a twisting of what is good, not a thing in itself. So a Being cannot be infinitely evil.

For an infinite Being to exist, it must exist in perfect goodness.

I disagree. (There are types of infinities and smaller and larger infinities...I can barely wrap my 'round that one!)

A being might be "infinite" in one quality but have no sense of morality whatsoever. "Evil" is a subjective valuation, and therefore cannot be infinite, imho. ((If you need a scenario to understand this, let me know).

[JehovahsWitness]

I disagree. (There are types of infinities and smaller and larger infinities...I can barely wrap my 'round that one!)

A being might be "infinite" in one quality but have no sense of morality whatsoever. "Evil" is a subjective valuation, and therefore cannot be infinite, imho. ((If you need a scenario to understand this, let me know).

If i may, yes I would like a scenario to understand this.

The way I see it, evil is the absence of goodness, just as light is the absence of darkness.

Just as a room isn't half light, it's light is simply not "complete" shining at maximum capacity, a perfect God must operate at 100% capacity. Just as darkness doesn't actually exist in itself, it is only the concept to the absense of something that does exist (maybe this is what you mean by My "Evil is a subjective valuation, and therefore cannot be infinite") God cannot be 100% evil, and since a Perfect God must be 100% whatever he is, He must be 100% good.

Just putting it out there, what do you think?

JW

[Plumbus Grumbo]

I disagree. (There are types of infinities and smaller and larger infinities...I can barely wrap my 'round that one!)

A being might be "infinite" in one quality but have no sense of morality whatsoever. "Evil" is a subjective valuation, and therefore cannot be infinite, imho. ((If you need a scenario to understand this, let me know).

If i may, yes I would like a scenario to understand this.

Some surgeries require that the body not receive any pain killers and the patient must be fully conscious. A child or mentally disabled person will see the procedure as evil, since she does not understand it is being done for her good. The doctor knows it is not evil, but the patient doesn't. The pain causes the patient to go into shock which kills her and without the surgery she would have lived happily for some time. According to the patient, the operation was evil and had no redeeming value. According to the Doctor and her caregivers it was right to try the surgery to help, it just didn't work out.

The way I see it, evil is the absence of goodness, just as light is the absence of darkness.

To my thinking, that's a sloppy excuse to not grapple with the complexities of what is and is not evil. Plenty of action were done for the "right" reasons but resulted in evil all around. The inquisition sought to save a soul by sending it to an eternity of heaven through temporal actions of pain/bodily harm. And who wouldn't trade a few hours or days of torture to escape an eternity of torture in a lake of fire? With cancer treatments and other medical treatments, the body is harmed and pain is endured to have less pain and more life.

Just as a room isn't half light, it's light is simply not "complete" shining at maximum capacity, a perfect God must operate at 100% capacity. Just as darkness doesn't actually exist in itself, it is only the concept to the absense of something that does exist (maybe this is what you mean by My "Evil is a subjective valuation, and therefore cannot be infinite") God cannot be 100% evil, and since a Perfect God must be 100% whatever he is, He must be 100% good.

Just putting it out there, what do you think?

JW

I think you aren't poking enough holes in your own thin theories. Some actions aren't "good" but aren't bad either. Using your idea, those actions aren't "light" and are therefore "dark"/evil.