Should all people be blamed for Adam's sin?

[polonius]

At the beginning of the Bible, we are told that Adam and Eve sinned. ("Original Sin")

And all future generations inherited their guilt.

Is that true?

And wasn't that rather unjust of God?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 59 by ttruscott]



[center]
All the perfectly innocent spirits decide to be evil, in "that pre-earth existence "[/center]

My answer to all of this is as you know, to suggest that pre-earth existence in which we as innocent spirits created perfectly with a free will chose to be evil in HIS sight by going against HIM and earth is just where HE is working our choices out for us.

For some reason, perfectly good, perfectly innocent spirit babies DECIDE to do evil for some reason.
____________

Question:

• 
  
  I'd really LOVE to know that "reason".
  
  

____________

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 57 by JehovahsWitness]




[center]Getting lost a bit in definitions.[/center]

What does SIN mean then?

Sin means not reaching the standard of perfection.

So, when a ski champion comes in second place, he is sinning, and he inherited that?

This is the condition in which all humans are born; it is an inherited condition.

Yeah, I pretty much accept that humans aren't perfect.
I don't know what it means when you call it an inherited condition. I don't know WHAT in the whole universe is "perfect".

I suppose I should ask you what you MEAN by "perfect". I always forget to ask for people's definitions until I get into the thick of things. Oh well, better late than never, right? Look for question number 10, below.


Do you know anything in the universe that is perfect?

( present catty company excluded, of course )




Are ALL things that aren't perfect guilty of sin?

Ok, that metaphor "inherited". When I think of something being inherited concerning who I am, I think of DNA or genetics. I have no idea what it would mean, though, to "inherit" [strike]someone else's sin[/strike] [a condition]

I have corrected your post, to try and make it clearer

hmmm "clearer".
Thanks much for the attempt.

I don't think I'm quite there yet.
Lets see how much I understood:

1. You say that "sin" means "imperfection".
2. Everything in the universe is imperfect, except, maybe God.
3. We can inherit "imperfection".
4. If Adam would have REMAINED perfect ( I'm guessing here ) we would all be perfect.
5. Since Adam messed up, he became IMPERFECT, and somehow, the rest of humanity "inherited" that imperfection.


Ok, I got lost at 3.
4, and 5, I have to admit, were just guesses.


I go back to my grampa.

It was highly imperfect of him to rob banks. Less perfect, say, than my great great grampa, the preacher.

I inherit my grampa's IMPERFECTION, and whatever my great great granpa did doesn't matter, because no matter what he DID, he was "imperfect" too.

As far as I can tell the only thing that I CAN inherit is imperfection, if there isn't anything perfect I can inherit from.

It almost seems that before Adam screwed up, everything and everyone was perfect, and then BOOM, everything and everyone was not.

If Adam made such a POOR decision, Adam seems to have a HUGE imperfection even before he was called imperfect.


I'm very confused.
( I mean way more than usual )


Hopefully, your answers to these questions will help me:
____________

Questions:

• 
  1. Was Adam perfect before he ... sinned or... became imperfect?
  
  2.Why does a perfect God want imperfect beings?
  
  3. Is God the only being able to achieve the standard of perfection?
  
  4. Other than God, do you know of anything that is perfect?
  
  5. If, say, we decide that a rock isn't perfect, is it sinning?
  
  6. How is it fair or morally good that one ( or two, let's not forget Eve ) person's imperfection INSTANTANEOUSLY becomes something that can be transmitted to all other humans?
  
  7. If everything and everyone in the known universe is IMPERFECT in some way, doesn't that mean that sin "comes included" with "existence"?
  
  8. Was Adam EVER perfect?
  
  9. Was Adam ever as perfect as GOD?
  
  10. This question should have been placed at the very beginning, as it's one of the most important: Could you define "perfection"?
  
  

____________


:smileleft

[JehovahsWitness]

3. We can inherit "imperfection".
4. If Adam would have REMAINED perfect ( I'm guessing here ) we would all be perfect.
5. Since Adam messed up, he became IMPERFECT, and somehow, the rest of humanity "inherited" that imperfection.


Ok, I got lost at 3..

First I would point out that we are in no way saying "everything in the universe is imperfect"... on the contrary, everything in the universe was created by God and everything he does is perfect so the universe is perfect (ie completely at his (God's) standards)


Ok, I got lost at 3.


Yes, our present imperfect state is an inherited condition. To illustrate, if you dropped a metal cake tin an it got a dent in it, what would happen to every cake that came out of tin? Wouldn't it have an indentation?

Or think of certain inherited (genetic) conditions, that are passed from the parents to the child. The child will be born with that condition (through no fault of its own) because it carries certain genetic characteristics from its parents.

In a similar way, Adam being our Father passed on his (defective) condition to his sons and daughers, they passed it on to their sons and daughters etc etc down to you and I born with the same "defective inherited condition" we call it "imperfection".


4, and 5, I have to admit, were just guesses

Four and five were spot on!


JW

[postroad]

[Replying to post 62 by JehovahsWitness]
Paul believed that all creation was compromised.

Romans 8:18-25New International Version (NIV)

Present Suffering and Future Glory

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

It appears that he believed that all creation was contaminated through the Adams sin? That this will be reversed at some time and restored to its original condition.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

its not a question of blame.it is a question of consequence.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

Good question polonius!

As a former evangelical Christian and member of a Southern Baptist Church, I was taught and I also taught others, that Adam's sin nature was passed on to all future generations. The basis for this belief is found in Romans 5:12...

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."

This doctrine is claimed to be supported by other scriptures and for that, you might want to go to https://www.gotquestions.org/I-did-not- ... fruit.html

This is no longer my belief, but maybe this will help you understand the evangelical position a little better. Have a great day!

[postroad]

[Replying to post 65 by amortalman] This type of thing facinates me. Do you mean to say that there now may exist persons proclaiming your former belief as the Spiritualy interpreted truth? If they are wrong and you where wrong, what confidence do you have that you now posses the truth? You may yet find yourself another truth, given time and insight.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 62 by JehovahsWitness]





[center]Here's an example of where the saying: "DEFINE YOUR TERMS" comes in so very handy[/center]

First I would point out that we are in no way saying "everything in the universe is imperfect"... on the contrary, everything in the universe was created by God and everything he does is perfect so the universe is perfect (ie completely at his (God's) standards)

Everything is perfect, yeah.

Perfect cancer, perfect every disease, perfect sneezes, perfect crib death, perfect blindness, perfect evil, perfect rotting corpses, perfect poo, perfect me, perfect you. Everything in the universe is perfect. Everything I ever said was perfect, what I am writing now is perfect. The chair that I am sitting on is perfect, my hair is perfect hair. When the doctors say my heart is messed up, that means my heart is perfect. They are perfectly right about my heart, and they are perfectly wrong. My heart is perfectly messed up. And it's also perfectly not perfectly messed up. I'm still perfectly alive.

Everything in the whole universe is perfect.
There can be nothing wrong, and if it is, it's PERFECTLY wrong.

If you die in a car crash tomorrow, that will have been a perfect event.
Tsunami?

Perfect way to kill millions of perfectly innocent and perfectly deserving victims.

Wars are perfect, peace is perfect, my chocolate souffle is always perfect ( even when it's not )

I'm sorry, but the way you used the word "perfect" makes the term MEANINGLESS.

Everything in nature is perfect?
Think again, my friend.

If that were the case, we would not NEED "salvation" and the reason for your religion is NIL.

Show me the PERFECT ROCK.
Go ahead.

I don't even think at this time that you know what the word "perfect" means.
It's easy to look it up.

Yes, our present imperfect state is an inherited condition. To illustrate, if you dropped a metal cake tin an it got a dent in it, what would happen to every cake that came out of tin? Wouldn't it have an indentation?

WOW what a bad example!!

For it to apply, ADAM would be everyone's parent. Genes MUTATE and we had different parents. You might have HEARD of "evolution" and "genetics"?

We aren't USING the "same old same old templates" ( tins, genes ) anymore. Yes, even tins have evolved. We aren't using the same ones we used to ... they make NEW ONES now. Sometimes, like eyes, things get BETTER with time. I have a Bunt pan with very lovely indentations, for example. The cake looks like a castle every time.

You many not Bunt cakes, but I do. I really do.
I'd rather have one of them than a perfectly SQUARE cake, any old day.

By your example, I'm thinking that you don't quite understand how genes work.

And it gets worse: IF there is no way of saying that anything at all in the universe isn't perfect why call our current state IMPERFECT? Everything is perfect or its NOT. Take your time, make up your mind and let us know when you thought it over.

You just admitted that you can't tell if everything is perfect or not.
BUT you also just admitted that you can tell that it is.

Here are your words:

"everything in the universe was created by God and everything he does is perfect "

Now, you want to talk about our IMPERFECTION?
I can't make sense out of this meaningless contradiction.

Something that can STOP being perfect isn't as PERFECT as something that doesn't stop being perfect. Apparently when you use the word "Perfect", you have more than one definition. One definition for God's perfection, and then another definition for the perfection of everything else. You may not be doing this special pleading, I can't tell. I'm just guessing again.

Or think of certain inherited (genetic) conditions, that are passed from the parents to the child.

Now, you are talking about GENETICS again.

Yeah, genetically, we can "inherit" physical attributes like the color of our eyes.
You think imperfection is passed down genetically?

If imperfection is something that exists in the universe, then not everything in the universe IS perfect.


A PERFECT tin wouldn't ever BE indented.. not if the indentations weren't intended.

If God wanted the possibility of IMPERFECTIONS in his perfect universe, then it's not our fault, but the designer's fault. He would have WANTED imperfections to happen.

If God didn't WANT imperfections, bad design.
He got 'em anyway.

You may have to think again about your insistence that everything in the universe IS perfect. I don't think that IMPERFECTION is all that perfect. Do you?

The universe was either created with the possibility of imperfection, or not. You really can't have it both ways. But you seem to be trying to.

I can't comprehend self-contradictory ideas like that. You might as well be talking about "married bachelors" for all the sense you are making about perfection and imperfection.

You might want to clear that up for me.

One of the best places to start is with a very rigorous definition for "perfection" and "imperfection" and "inheritance"... Your key terms are in need of definitions, my friend. I do NOT understand what you mean by those words. And when I come to realize that I don't understand what another person is talking about, I either ask them what they mean, or I give up... and back up.. smiling... ok, pal, ok... Here, let me buy you a drink...

Ever have moments like that in a bar?
( ever have ANY kind of moments in a bar? )

The child will be born with that condition (through no fault of its own) because it carries certain genetic characteristics from its parents.

If it's NO FAULT how can the child ever be GUILTY?

NO FAULT MEANS NOT GUILTY

So, the child is perfectly INNOCENT of any crime. ( Sin, imperfection, perfection, the CHILD is not guilty of ANYTHING if it's not his FAULT )

What a mess.
To me, this represents more of a language difficulty than anything else.
But it also messes with your ability to REASON.

IF the kid isn't GUILTY of anything, if imperfection isn't his FAULT, why pretend it's a problem?

IF every human on earth is imperfect, or perfect, or somewhere in between, so what? What's the problem with that? We are what we are. If God can't handle that, too bad for him. He should have created us differently if we wanted better results.

IF ITS NOT OUR FAULT, WE ARE NOT GUILTY AND NONE OF US SHOULD BE PUNISHED

In a similar way, Adam being our Father passed on his (defective) condition to his sons and daughers, they passed it on to their sons and daughters etc etc down to you and I born with the same "defective inherited condition" we call it "imperfection".

I am NOT aware of a gene for "PERFECTION" or "IMPERFECTION".

But it seems that you REALLY mean to say that a sin=defective inherited condition. Well, I'd REALLY like to know the mechanism by which perfection or imperfection gets "inherited".


I gets complicated, doesn't it?
I don't at all pretend to have all the answers.

That's why I ask so many darn questions all the time.

Four and five were spot on!

I was just trying my very best to get your story straight.
But I have a LONG way to go before the story makes any sense.

It's like Lewis Carol to me right now... but Carol INTENDED to not make sense.
I think you are trying to make a LOT of sense.

We aren't there yet.


So, with the project of understanding your ideas in mind:
Lets see if I understand you.. and as you can see from above, I probably DO NOT.

____________

1. You say that "sin" means "imperfection".
____________

I think I got that right.
Sin is just another way of saying that we aren't perfect.

But then you go on to say that everything in the universe should be perfect since God is perfect and he doesn't go around making shoddy work.

And THEN you say that we are imperfect.

So, in my opinion, I do NOT understand point 1.


It's either the case that everything in the universe is perfect or it is not the case that everything in the universe is perfect.

____________

2. Everything in the universe is imperfect, except, maybe God.
____________

Ok, here, I think you rebutted that we can't know if everything is imperfect, but we should assume that everything is perfect, including God, because God is perfect and God don't mess around.

Except that humans are not.
Adam was maybe perfect for a while, but then.. the whole lot of us "became" or "inherited" imperfection as if perfection were a genetic trait.

I can't say that I understand point 2, because I do NOT comprehend completely self-contradictory statements like that.

It's either everything IS perfect, or it's not.
If everything is perfect, it's as perfect as it's gonna GET.
If something can be said to change from perfection to imperfection, whatever it was can be said to have had a FLAW.

Perfection, at least the way that I use the word, doesn't ALLOW for any flaw. It would be like saying that something perfect has an imperfection.

Married bachelors, square circles. Imperfect perfections.

These are OXYMORONS.
They are meaningless contradictions.

If everything in the universe is perfect that means that any rock if perfect, if a rock is perfect, it's as perfect as your god is perfect, unless, of course you have two definitions for the word "perfect". One very perfect, and one not so much. Another way of saying "not so much perfect" is "imperfect", or "flawed in some way".


That darn perfect rock again.

And all those imperfect people living in the "perfect" universe full of nothing but perfection.

That doesn't make SENSE.. so I can't understand.

____________

3. We can inherit "imperfection".
____________

You seem to be hinting at a "gene" for perfection.

If that's just a darn metaphor, could you PLEASE tell us the mechanism by which "imperfection" is being handed down?

And by the way.. IF "imperfection" is a thing in the universe that can be handed down.. why do you say that the universe is PERFECT if you do?

This is all ( almost ) PERFECTLY incomprehensible to me. ( kindof a joke there, the word "perfect" is used in many ways, some of them SLOPPY )

I don't even KNOW what you mean by perfect or imperfect, so.. yeah..
I don't understand you yet.

( by the way, I'm not saying that I can't look up words in a dictionary to find out the common meanings of words like "perfection", I'm saying that I do not know how YOU are using the word)

____________

4. If Adam would have REMAINED perfect ( I'm guessing here ) we would all be perfect.
____________

Ok, apparently, I nailed that one.

How did Adam get to be imperfect? Apparently, by SINNING, and SIN means imperfect. Hmmm...

So, what did Blastcat learn today? Blastcat learned that Adam became imperfect when he became imperfect today, that's what Blastcat learned today.

____________

IMPORTANT LESSON:

When someone stops being perfect, they aren't perfect anymore, and that, my friends is how you stop being perfect.
____________

Ok, the above doesn't make any sense, none of it.
I nailed number 4, but it MAKES NO SENSE TO ME.........

I can repeat your words like a parrot, but I can't pretend to understand them better than any parrot. Maybe you want to explain some of those points to me a little more.

____________

5. Since Adam messed up, he became IMPERFECT, and somehow, the rest of humanity "inherited" that imperfection.
____________

I nailed that one too.
Doesn't mean a thing to me.

Polly wanna cracker?
I just repeated what you wrote, like a parrot.

How can a perfect being mess up?
USUALLY, perfect beings, like GOD, don't.

EVER.
That's because THEY ARE PERFECT.

How does imperfection gets passed down genetically?
mmmmmmmm God magic?


( that last one was also a wild guess... hey, with god magic, you can do anything )


_____________________

ONE REQUEST:

Please please please please define your key terms. I have NO idea what you are talking about.

_____________________

[ttruscott]

[quote="Blastcat"]
3. We can inherit "imperfection".
4. If Adam would have REMAINED perfect ( I'm guessing here ) we would all be perfect.
5. Since Adam messed up, he became IMPERFECT, and somehow, the rest of humanity "inherited" that imperfection.

Kudos. The word 'somehow' highlights the fact that this inheritance of imperfection should not have ever happened (in life or even in theological acceptance) because this is considered to be our creation ! not just our introduction into humanity forcing the doctrine GOD created us evil which we are supposed to gloss over with double-think.

I hope you expand on this point because as a mystery it actually admits it is a blasphemy against GOD but it is the method the church fathers chose to describe our being sinful at birth because they rejected our pre-earth choice to be sinners by our free will.

I like that phrase, I think I'll repeat it: a mystery is a blasphemy that MUST be accepted.

I think I will send you a small donation for bringing this point into our thoughts.

[polonius]

Blastcat posted:

Lets see how much I understood:

1. You say that "sin" means "imperfection".
2. Everything in the universe is imperfect, except, maybe God.
3. We can inherit "imperfection".
4. If Adam would have REMAINED perfect ( I'm guessing here ) we would all be perfect.
5. Since Adam messed up, he became IMPERFECT, and somehow, the rest of humanity "inherited" that imperfection.

RESPONSE: This argument overlooks an obvious fact.

1. God alone is the only cause of the entire universe.
2. The universe is imperfect.
3. Therefore God is an imperfect creator.