Do not make them?

[JehovahsWitness]

Exodus 20:4, 5 (NASB)

“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them

> What, in your opinion does this commandment mean?

> What does "any likeness" mean? and would the likeness of a man (rather than an an animal) also be prohibited?

> If the difference between an image and an idol is a matter of attitude and what we do with it, why the prohibition on making them?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 28 by onewithhim]

[center]


People who use the Bible to support their views are biased.[/center]

No, it is your bias that causes you to cling to the idea that Jesus is God, even though dozens of other scriptures counter that notion.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  Please provide evidence that you don't have a bias for your position and that people who come to different conclusions than yourself have a bias.
  
  

____________

[William]

Exodus 20:4, 5 (NASB)

“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them

> What, in your opinion does this commandment mean?

It seems self explanatory. GOD is not re-presentable within any image of a form created by human hands.
The idols purpose is to represent an idea of god which can be shaped by human minds and from that projected into the external universe through use of that medium (from the things of the earth.)

> What does "any likeness" mean? and would the likeness of a man (rather than an an animal) also be prohibited?

I don't see why it cannot be any likeness whatsoever - even of things which are not seen to exist but are conceived within the imagination.

The image can be conveyed even without making a physical representation of what the image conveys.

> If the difference between an image and an idol is a matter of attitude and what we do with it, why the prohibition on making them?

More likely than not, because the practice was prevalent enough to be normal, and there was a necessity to point out the mistake therein as it pertained to the God which was invisible, referred to as 'The Lord God' and had many names and attributes, and none could be sure it (he) even had a form.
( why indeed was it referred to as gender specific?) -

Placing images of GOD in the mind is wrought with its own problems. Bringing these out into the external world simple identifies those problems.

Jesus gave another image of God in which to consider and to believe in. It was an addition to the gender-based one already popular at the time. He called the male God 'Father' and - at least from what I can tell in the stories, Jesus wanted humans to have the same image of God in their psyches.

Over the centuries this image has transformed into an old man on a throne, in the clouds judging humanity.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 30 by onewithhim]
God had nothing to do with it no matter what the texts say?
Who killed the Israelites after they were numbered? What were they guilty of.

2 Samuel 24:15-17New International Version (NIV)

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.� The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[a] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.�

Is the angel of the Lord, Satan? If David immediately felt remorse and repented for the sin of taking a census why did God not forgive him but felt compelled to kill 70 000 people?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 1 by JehovahsWitness]



[center]

YOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP WHAT IS MADE UP[/center]

Exodus 20:4, 5 (NASB)

“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them

> What, in your opinion does this commandment mean?

Don't worship or serve what people made up.

> What does "any likeness" mean? and would the likeness of a man (rather than an an animal) also be prohibited?

Are we really going to discuss the meaning of the word "ANY"?

"Don't take any candies" means that you can take NONE.
Don't worship any likeness means that you can worship "NONE".

But I have to admit, the writer is very clever.
By NONE he means NONE OTHER THAN THIS ONE.

But taken at it's WORD... ( and not poetically ) it means to not worship ANY IMAGE AT ALL.... ANY means "none" in this context.

And I'm sorry to say but:


ONE ≠ NONE


Don't, for example, worship ANY anthropomorphized "Father" or "Son" or "Spirit". All of these are "likenesses" or "metaphors". People made those up. Don't worship or serve those metaphors that people made up.

> If the difference between an image and an idol is a matter of attitude and what we do with it, why the prohibition on making them?

I think it's safe to say that every believer in a god or goddess has SOME KIND of "image" or "way or representing" the deity. The law says that's a no-no. Don't have any image in your brain about the deity. Don't ascribe, for example, anything LIKE human characteristics to the deity.


I think the law is talking about agnosticism.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 2 by onewithhim]




[center]
My idols/icons are better than your idols/icons[/center]

Good questions. I find that it is interesting that people say they honor the Bible, but then make excuses for the idols/icons that they make and use in worship. I hope that people will consider this thread and offer comments.

Some people worship certain words in a certain book.
Some people don't understand that religious sounding words work exactly like idols/icons.

They read a word like "Father" and worship THAT.

[William]

[Replying to post 2 by onewithhim]




[center]
My idols/icons are better than your idols/icons[/center]

Good questions. I find that it is interesting that people say they honor the Bible, but then make excuses for the idols/icons that they make and use in worship. I hope that people will consider this thread and offer comments.

Some people worship certain words in a certain book.
Some people don't understand that religious sounding words work exactly like idols/icons.

They read a word like "Father" and worship THAT.

To begin with, there has to be (as with everything) a common position of agreement in order to then move forward with intelligence.

What do you mean by 'worship' in regard to your comment re 'The Father', Blastcat?

If you care to clarify this, I would like to understand your perspective on the subject, as I have things to say about it myself.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 36 by William]

To begin with, there has to be (as with everything) a common position of agreement in order to then move forward with intelligence.

I agree.

What do you mean by 'worship' in regard to your comment re 'The Father', Blastcat?

You would have to ask the original poster what he means by the term. I just use the common dictionary definitions UNLESS I have a weird and wonderful way of using the term.

Hows this for starters, it was the very first search result I got from Google :

the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

If you care to clarify this, I would like to understand your perspective on the subject, as I have things to say about it myself.

Well, when it comes to the word "Father" when applying it to something supernatural, I don't THINK that most theists mean "biological human male progenitor with a penis".

I don't think that most theists think that God has sexual organs. I think the term is MEANT metaphorically.

So, I have to think that people who worship this "Father" god are using the term metaphorically. Perhaps some of them mean that the part of the pantheon they call "Father" is ACTING like a father would act, authoritative, punishing, angry all the time about politics, whatever.

__________________

A Father to son conversation:

"Son, why don't you go fetch the newspaper.

Oh yeah, and I love you.. now go down to earth in order to get KILLED, like a good boy. We'll see you in about ohhhhh 30 years or so."

___________________


You know, a quite normal kind of Father/son conversation.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 30 by onewithhim]
God had nothing to do with it no matter what the texts say?
Who killed the Israelites after they were numbered? What were they guilty of.

2 Samuel 24:15-17New International Version (NIV)

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.� The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[a] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.�

Is the angel of the Lord, Satan? If David immediately felt remorse and repented for the sin of taking a census why did God not forgive him but felt compelled to kill 70 000 people?

You are getting off the particular scripture you asked about. I explained why it can be said that it was Satan, or, "the adversary" who incited David. Some Bible scholars have weighed in saying that the word for "he" in 2Samuel 24:1 could be rendered "it" and since there is no definite word on exactly who "it" is, IChronicles 21:1 aids us in that respect. This is what other scholars have said, including the KJV committee, not me. I'm just doing research.


.

[William]

[Replying to post 37 by Blastcat]

I Have answered you in this thread post Blastcat

[postroad]

[Replying to post 38 by onewithhim]

Not at all. If Satan did the inciting and God did the slaying after David repented for counting the people who died for doing nothing to deserve it, well.....that is an interest story.