Why don't Christians support a loving Jesus?

[Divine Insight]

This has been a major concern of mine that runs clear back to the days when I was a Christian. As a Christian I would try my best to argue for a loving Jesus. I would search though the scriptures looking for the most uplifting and positive verses and interpretations I could find. And I would use those verses and scriptures to argue for a decent loving Jesus. A Jesus who easily forgives people just as he had suggested we should do.

Ironically I found that my greatest adversaries were not atheists or non-Christians, but instead the people who objected to a loving Jesus the most were other Christians. They were always quick to point out other verses that seemed to contradict the loving positive verses that I would point to. They also seemed to always favor the most negative and condemning interpretations of any verses. Always rejecting any interpretation that might allow for anyone to ever escape condemnation if they don't proclaim Jesus to be the ultimate authority and King of Creation.

Is this the bottom line for Christianity?

Is the love that Jesus taught meaningless?

It is not enough to be a loving person?

Is Christianity ultimate about confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord and Ruler of the universe?

Is that what Christianity is all about?

Why are Christian so opposed to a loving forgiving Jesus?

And why is being a loving person not sufficient to be in harmony with Jesus?

[JehovahsWitness]

Is the love that Jesus taught meaningless? No, love is the basis of the two greatest commandments.

It is not enough to be a loving person? No

Is Christianity ultimate about confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord and Ruler of the universe? No, its about confessing Jesus as Lord and His Father JEHOVAH as supreme ruler of the universe.

Why are Christian so opposed to a loving forgiving Jesus? They are not, at least *I* am not

And why is being a loving person not sufficient to be in harmony with Jesus? Because Jesus said for salvation more is involved. He explained that to please God our love must be "perfect" or complete. No love is complete without love of God. Loving God wasn't Jesus' greatest suggestion, it was the greatest COMMANDEMENT.

[Divine Insight]

And why is being a loving person not sufficient to be in harmony with Jesus? Because Jesus said for salvation more is involved. He explained that to please God our love must be "perfect" or complete. No love is complete without love of God. Loving God wasn't Jesus' greatest suggestion, it was the greatest COMMANDEMENT.

Ok, so Christianity is not about natural love then, but instead it's about pleasing a God who is COMMANDING people to love.

But how can that be love?

What kind of love needs to be been forced by COMMANDMENT? In all caps no less?

Do Christians need to be forced by COMMANDMENT to love others?

Why is it that atheists are capable of loving people all on their own without being commanded to love others by a God who is apparently demanding to be pleased?

Also what happens is if this God is not pleased? Does he then become angry and unleash his hateful wrath upon those who haven't pleased him?

And if so, does this God then truly represent love?

He certainly wouldn't be a very good example of love IMHO.

Other religions seem to have far more loving Gods. The Goddess of Wicca is certainly far more loving than this. She doesn't command anyone to love anyone. She knows better than to think that you could command people to love. People either love or they don't. That's what makes them who they are.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

What kind of love needs to be been forced by COMMANDMENT?

God doesn't force us to love Him (if he did we'd all love him, which evidently is not the case). He commands it and lets each individual decide if they want to obey the command or not.

Do Christians need to be forced by COMMANDMENT to love others? The first commandment is not to love "others" it's to love GOD. It's the first and greatest commandment. As I said, God doesn't force anyone to do anything, He allows us to choose whether we will or not. Loving some people (our partners, friends, children, benevolent strangers...) is easy, loving others (those that do us or our loved ones harm) is harder. We all still have the choice as to what we will do.

Other religions seem to have far more loving Gods. People are free to love the God they choose. I choose to love Jehovah, for He is *my* God; Wiccas can make their own choices.

MICAH 4:5
For all the peoples do walk, Each in the name of its god -- and we, We do walk in the name of Jehovah our God, To the age and for ever. - YLT

JW



Does God force his creation to love?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 67#p844367

Do we have to worship God just because he made us?
viewtopic.php?p=1072969#p1072969

[Divine Insight]

What kind of love needs to be been forced by COMMANDMENT?

God doesn't force us to love Him (if he did we'd all love him, which evidently is not the case). He commands it and lets each individual decide if they want to obey the command or not.

Is he threatening to harm you in any way if you fail to obey his command?

If so, I would consider that to be "forcing you" whether you chose to comply or not.

Do Christians need to be forced by COMMANDMENT to love others? The first commandment is not to love "others" it's to love GOD. It's the first and greatest commandment. As I said, God doesn't force anyone to do anything, He allows us to choose whether we will or not. Loving some people (our partners, friends, children, benevolent strangers...) is easy, loving others (those that do us or our loved ones harm) is harder. We all still have the choice as to what we will do.

So he's not only commanding that you love other humans but he's commanding that you love him first and foremost?

And what happens if you don't obey his command? Then what?

Other religions seem to have far more loving Gods. People are free to love the God they choose. I choose to love Jehovah, for He is *my* God; Wiccas can make their own choices.

So then it's ok to choose to love another God? This God won't get jealous and threaten to harm people who choose to love another God?

Why don't Christians make this more clear?

Most Christians I've met proclaim that there are no other Gods. And I confess also that I have read the Christian Bible and it says in there that the Christian God is jealous and has "commanded" that no one is to love any other Gods over him.

I believe it's the first of the Ten Commandments he gave to Moses.

Did that only apply to Moses and his people? Or was that intended to apply to other people too? And is there anyone who is exempt from that commandment? And what happens if a person fails to obey it? Will he then be mean to them and hurt them?

[JehovahsWitness]

Is he threatening to harm you in any way if you fail to obey his command?

No, He simply informs people of what will happend ultimately if the break the command or law. Death. It's not a "threat" its a consequence.

To illustrate: The "law" of gravity also has inevitable conséquences. Is the fact that if you jump of a high building you will plummet to your death "a threat"? Not really, its a natural consequence of defying one of God's laws. Does the law have benefits? yes, its safeguards us and makes life possible and pleasurable.

God's moral laws are also for our benefit. The first and foremost is to love the Creator, Jehovah. He doesn't force us to, anymore than an archetech "forces" people to respect the law of gravity and keep away from the edge of one his skyscrapers when on the roof, but it is best for all concerned if we do.

Those that love God will be rewarded with Eternal life. Those that don't know the true God will be given an opportunity to do so, and then will be asked to make their choice. Those that would rather die than love a God like Jehovah, will have their wishes respected.



JW

[Divine Insight]

Is he threatening to harm you in any way if you fail to obey his command?

No, He simply informs people of what will happend ultimately if the break the command or law. Death. It's not a "threat" its a consequence.

In that case I've never been informed by him. So until he gets around to informing me I guess it's not important.

To illustrate: The "law" of gravity also has inevitable conséquences. Is the fact that if you jump of a high building you will plummet to your death "a threat"? Not really, its a natural consequence of defying one of God's laws. Does the law have benefits? yes, its safeguards us and makes life possible and pleasurable.

God's moral laws are also for our benefit. The first and foremost is to love the Creator, Jehovah. He doesn't force us to, anymore than an archetech "forces" people to respect the law of gravity and keep away from the edge of one his skyscrapers when on the roof, but it is best for all concerned if we do.

The law of Gravity can be demonstrated to be true.

The law of a wrathful God who will supposedly harm you if you fail to obey him cannot be demonstrated to be anything more than a groundless superstition.

Those that love God will be rewarded with Eternal life.

How does this amount to anything more than a groundless superstition as well?

Those that don't know the true God will be given an opportunity to do so, and then will be asked to make their choice. Those that would rather die than love a God like Jehovah, will have their wishes respected.

In that case I'll have to wait until this God gives me that opportunity.

I haven't seen hide nor hair of him yet. All I've heard thus far are groundless superstitions that have no more merit than stories of Santa Claus.

[Clownboat]

And why is being a loving person not sufficient to be in harmony with Jesus? Because Jesus said for salvation more is involved. He explained that to please God our love must be "perfect" or complete. No love is complete without love of God. Loving God wasn't Jesus' greatest suggestion, it was the greatest COMMANDEMENT.

Greatest commandment? Is it even necessary to get to heaven though?

Matt 5:7 Jesus is claimed to have said: Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. (Nothing about loving a god there)

Matt 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you. (Loving a god is not listed as a qualification for forgiveness).

Matt 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. ('Words', not 'loving a god' here)

Matt 19:29 And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. (Again, here we can have eternal life. No loving of a god needed and no sacrificial Jesus character needed).

Matt 9:13 Go and learn what this means, I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.
(Says the human who is claimed to have been sacrificed to the god of Christianity no less).

According to these scriptures above that most Christians want to believe that Jesus said, it seems we can get to heaven without believing in human sacrifice to god concepts nor loving said god concept. So how can loving this god concept actually be the greatest commandment if it's not a requirement to get to heaven?

(Paul verses were left off the table here. Obviously he was all about human sacrifice to a god and blood and all that sort of superstitious ... 'stuff').

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 8 by Clownboat]

You can add Luke 6:37 to your list:

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

If you don't condemn others then according to Jesus you shall not be condemned. Nothing about loving any God there.

But then again the Bible is filled with self-contradiction and has Jesus speaking out of both sides of his mouth. So is there really any point in having Jesus debate against himself?

I've always wondered why someone doesn't create a puppet show where two marionette dolls of Jesus argue with each other using only words attributed to Jesus in the Gospels. There are enough conflicting versus that Jesus could easily be made to appear to be disagreeing with himself in a conversation that uses nothing more than Jesus quotes.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 6 by JehovahsWitness]
I am not finding any second chances in the texts.

Revelation 21:6-8New International Version (NIV)

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.�