William's Random Ramblings

[William]

I am attempting to save enough credits (5000) in order to then apply for my own thread in the Members Notes section of the Miscellaneous forum. If you feel inclined to donate towards this cause, then much appreciation... ...and thanks in advance...

Meantime I figure it can't hurt to place stuff in here which is inspired by other posts in other parts of the forum to which I think meander away from thread topics of debate, but also so I can keep better organisation of my input on this message board, which is - after-all - primarily for the purpose of debate. I am more inclined to desire discussion and find my lack of interest in (and even my distaste of) debate in the usual sense of the meaning of debating, to be a bias I am happy enough to work around.

So, with that said, I would like to start this by making my first reply to Blastcat re;

[center]The idea of Worship- what does it mean?[/center]

[Replying to post 36 by William]

To begin with, there has to be (as with everything) a common position of agreement in order to then move forward with intelligence.

I agree.

Good. Moving forward with intelligence then...

What do you mean by 'worship' in regard to your comment re 'The Father', Blastcat?

Hows this for starters, it was the very first search result I got from Google :

the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

Okay - that'll do nicely.

So in relation to your statement;

They read a word like "Father" and worship THAT.

You are saying that [they - some people] have a feeling of reverence and adoration when they read a word like "Father", and in relation to the idea that God is a 'Father' (as per Jesus) then the connection in relation to the two concepts, one being GOD and the other being FATHER, is about a sense of reverence and adoration in the believer regarding that combination of ideas...would that be a fair enough assessment of what you are saying Blastcat?

If you care to clarify this, I would like to understand your perspective on the subject, as I have things to say about it myself.

Well, when it comes to the word "Father" when applying it to something supernatural, I don't THINK that most theists mean "biological human male progenitor with a penis".

I agree with this. But I also think that they still have a sense of the idea that the deity is masculine in nature as per human (and other) males.

Would you agree?

I don't think that most theists think that God has sexual organs. I think the term is MEANT metaphorically.

The metaphor being about the role of the male within human society, transferred onto the idea of GOD, in order to invoke the overall authority often equated with families and social order in general...the masculine energy if you will...would you agree?

So, I have to think that people who worship this "Father" god are using the term metaphorically. Perhaps some of them mean that the part of the pantheon they call "Father" is ACTING like a father would act, authoritative, punishing, angry all the time about politics, whatever.

Perhaps this has some merit. Certainly Jesus [what is attributed to him having said] seems to bring that into the idea. But I also see that it isn't all about the fatherly role being ONLY those things.

Would you agree?

Also - would it be fair to say that in individual cases, HOW the individual has experienced (or is experiencing) the Father-Figure in there subjective reality can influence HOW the idea of 'Father' is projected BY said individual?

Would you agree?

A Father to son conversation:

"Son, why don't you go fetch the newspaper.

Oh yeah, and I love you.. now go down to earth in order to get KILLED, like a good boy. We'll see you in about ohhhhh 30 years or so."

___________________


You know, a quite normal kind of Father/son conversation.

Now-now Blastcat. I thought we agreed from the go-get that we would approach this with intelligence? Your remark is more of a sign that you do not understand the dynamics of the relationship between Jesus and his father and that you would perhaps rather remain in a sort of clowning around position than try and understand that?

Or perhaps it is more related to your own personal experience of 'what a father is and how a father behaves' that influences writing what you did?

I am quite happy to give something of my understanding of the relationship as per the story if it genuinely would interest you. If you prefer to make jokes about it, that of course is your prerogative.

For now I will leave the subject at that and wait for your response. If you don't want to 'go there' then fair enough. I will probably use this thread to share my thoughts on the subject anyway...

[William]

[center]The evolution of the understanding of the idea of GOD
Enter The Next Level Stage - Mother of Father[/center]

[Replying to William]


"Rather, the bible tends to show an idea of a God evolving from one state to the next as he develops his strategy in relation to his agenda re human consciousness in human form."

That's exactly how it appears to us. God could not have shown Himself 5000ys ago as He did 2000ys ago or how He would in another 2000ys.
We can not even imagine human life human intelligenct 2000 ys from now. God shall have to speak the current language to be heard.

From my own experience and perspective on that, my understanding of the idea of GOD developed alongside my intellect and with this, the ability to comprehend and appreciate a more fuller, wider, deeper overall picture of what is most likely going on in relation to that.

When as a child, GOD for me just seemed to be someone that existed but to whom I had no particular connection or disconnection.
I was not indifferent, just accepting in an attitude of presumption and matter-of-factness.

When I converted through the repentance process (around 17 ½ years of age) it was from that moment on when I experienced 'strange' things, out of the ordinary - (and although I had no knowledge of such at the time) related to OOBE experiences.

So in relation to that, I was coming to the 'Father' through the 'Son' or to say that another way, the Idea of GOD as a 'Father' was made available to my understanding through the Son.

5 “Lord,� said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?� 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.�… [linky]

So my idea of GOD had developed from how I understood it as a child, to how I was now beginning to understand it as a mid-adolescent.

Through the years the transformation of my self awareness and self identification through meeting the Father through the asking the Son was to then be shown a secret of sorts - The Father is the gateway to The Mother.

[center]"No one comes to the Mother except through the Father."[/center]

That is just the way of it re human societal development.

In meeting the Mother, I was introduced to certain concepts which I had never before entertained.

Suffice to say that my Love for The Mother fractionally exceeds my Love for The Father or The Son.

But at that level, its all the same, so no problem with that.

The main reason for this slight bias I have in relation to preference, is that finding The Mother in all this, provided for me a place in my psyche where I could relax and ponder on things without wrestling with my man-made self in regard to good and evil.

This is the feminine side of GOD and the Father is the dark side in relation to human masculine male energy.

The Mother brings light into that darkness.

A design of purpose and a will to do it.

The Father protects The Mother from the insults of ignorance by raising a sword and slaying the offender(s).

Those are metaphor for strong words been spoken in the name of a GOD.

In the past, this was done through the flesh of human beings. This is precisely why (take note atheists) thou shalt NOT upset anyone's idea of GOD especially if it is the Abrahamic God.

Everything is out in the open warts and all. Biblical reference alludes to the nature of The Adolescent in terms of experimentation in ruling over primitive life forms, where and however possible.
Sometimes getting it wrong - write that down - moving along...

What was required was a grown up Son.

So The Adolescent evolved into the Son...somewhat long-lost in relation to The Mother and The Father - but they understood he was busy with his experiments and left him to learn for himself, therein.

Coming closer to The Mother and The Father, The Son understood where he could have done a better Job, and his part in the whole catastrophe...something had to be done to try and correct that.

Father and Son spent long, dark winter nights conversing in relation to the problems caused by the experiment and together formulated a plan which involved the Son incarnating into the experiment and taking on a form of a human male.

The Mother, naturally grieved but it was her plan, to which The Father translated to The Son.

The Mother also incarnated into a human female form.

The Father stayed home. Close by, in other words.

The rest, as they say, is His Story.

There are many Sons and Daughters of course - this is specific to the One Son who made some mistakes and then rectified them.

But that is how I have learn to read the story. I met The Mother, not like I meet The Father...I have not seen her, except in The Father.

She is beyond my ability or comprehension to make any kind of image of, apart from how she explains herself to me as I learn to listen. In that, she is beauty beyond words...But I try to convey those words in my songs. The poetic side of songs...the music is something else again. There are so many ways a human can express their love for something that adorable.

But also, if any image does flicker in and out of my awareness, it is one of a human girl-child who just wants to have everything 'so' and then that can sway to the image of an ancient old woman who just wants to have everything 'so'.

And that is only the human-form images I have of her from time to time...I guess it is only human to tend toward putting faces to names, as it were.

The Love is within the Communion.


[center]Sleeping Dragon

So sleeps The Dragon - And dreams us alive
Form is illusion and so are the thoughts which persistently tell us we need to survive
In a world without kindness - Where fear is supreme
If we need to recall - Even one thing at all - remember, we live in a dream...

...But the dream for real - or so it appears
And we're not sure what Love is - but we heard - it could scare away fears.
There is no need to fear me - I am not here to kill...
...and I wasn't around when the hammer came down, and Jesus was hung on The Cross on The Hill.

I dream with The Dragon - To help things along
She gives me the gifts and the heart and the words and the feel and the song
Dream Sleeping Dragon - You're The Heart of The Earth
And I dream of the Time and the Place and the Life and the Love and the Light of your Birth

So Sleeps The Dragon - And dreams us awake
She shows us the wonder of chaos and the fact that there's been no mistake!
Why did I cry then? When I learned not to laugh?
Did I not see the forest for trees? Did I not see the dream, on this unfolding path?[/center]

[William]

[center]On the theory of the universe having always existed and will always exist.
Where does consciousness actually fit in all that
?
[linky 1]
[Linky 2][/center]

[Monta]

[Replying to William]


"So my idea of GOD had developed from how I understood it as a child, to how I was now beginning to understand it as a mid-adolescent.

Through the years the transformation of my self awareness and self identification through meeting the Father through the asking the Son was to then be shown a secret of sorts - The Father is the gateway to The Mother. "

Fascinating reading. It is your experience but keep in mind there is nothing new under the sun. Filling in the gaps yes but Father Mother is bit confusing as God is Love and Wisdom (feminie and masculine) manifesting.

There are spiritual powers which want to drag man away from God. Take care.

[William]

[Replying to William]


"So my idea of GOD had developed from how I understood it as a child, to how I was now beginning to understand it as a mid-adolescent.

Through the years the transformation of my self awareness and self identification through meeting the Father through the asking the Son was to then be shown a secret of sorts - The Father is the gateway to The Mother. "

Fascinating reading. It is your experience but keep in mind there is nothing new under the sun. Filling in the gaps yes but Father Mother is bit confusing as God is Love and Wisdom (feminie and masculine) manifesting.

There are spiritual powers which want to drag man away from God. Take care.

As I said..."But at that level, its all the same, so no problem with that."

[William]

[center]"It's Only Coincidence - The Brain Is Trained To recognize Patterns Which Aren't Really There"
Serendipity and Synchronicity=How GOD provides the individual with evidence[/center]

When I was in my early 20's I got it in my head to put my beliefs to the test.

Did I really believe in Jesus or not? Why was I confused about certain things? Why had I descended into depression in which it seemed the only way out (perhaps) was to leave things behind and move on.

Dysfunctional childhood+Taking the first step to changing myself through Jesus in my mid teens="wait for it...."

Well I came to this place of realization at a point where I was already now married (Joanne) and had a son (Dylan) and was trying to do the Christian thing and stuffing that up more often than not...I had to get back to my 'roots' in relation to the 'call' in relation to Jesus.

The taint of organised religion to which I eventually chose to join 'because I was now a Christian and needed to find a church to attend' - how did that work out for me? Well Jesus remained outside while I had my taste of church and when finally I decided that enough was enough, Jesus was still there waiting for me, outside the door.

Metaphorical speaking of course. That was the 'feel' of the image I had in constructed in my mind at the time.

What really happened was that the love and rapport I had developed through my initial conversion to the service of the Lord was still in my heart even through the diversion of organised religion I experienced.

But really the whole process involved dealing with the past and putting things right where I physically could.

I wasn't a bad bugger. I was simply naughty but trying to be good and failing mostly. Jesus thus became the stabilizing influence to which I could garner wisdom in relation to 'how to proceed' but to which I was largely ignorant of (as the process I was going through at the time...to which hindsight is the instructor) and thus FAITH because without it one cannot proceed along an unproven path.

The biblical stories are not evidence but testimony and in that, it behooves the individual to make the effort in order to eventually be shown the irrefutable evidence when presented enough times consistently to show the individual the reality of the connection through Serendipity and Synchronicity...the patterns can be seen for what they are. Indicators of a far bigger intelligence network [GOD].

So after the depression period was dealt with sufficiently, I was in a kind of limbo. Certain connections made through the church experience had left me feeling somewhat betrayed or at least, greatly let down.

I wrote a song about that too.

Here is the poem.

[center]What Did You Do To My Head?

1: Won't someone help me - find a way out of this...
You lift me up - then betray me with a kiss
Stained glassed windows - looking down at me...
I don't think that I like...everything I see.

Oh no no no...not everything I see...

Chorus

Nobody likes it when you trick and you treat
Nobody likes it when you're not on your feet
Clapping and believing everything that you said
I don't think that I like what you did to my head
No no no
What did you do to my head?

2: It seems to hit me - every now and then
And I want to know it all - How and where and when
I though I knew you - I thought you had it all
My baby watched me climb - My baby watched me fall
Oh no no no - My baby watched me fall

3: I thought I saw an Angel - was she the devil in disguise?
She came in through my window - just like the sunrise
She climbed into my heart - she made me feel at ease
But she wasn't really happy - not 'till I got on my knees
Oh no no no - not 'till I got on my knees

[/center]

So there is a balancing act of sorts, between the two towers of Good and Evil.

My failures re following Jesus correctly came about through my following the advise of those I held in esteem re being the ones to instruct me correctly.

So by my own choices I disregarded what Jesus commanded of his followers and listened instead to those who had 'brought me to the Lord'. An easy enough mistake to make and one which I take full responsibility for.

In the event, I wandered from the path - strangely still taking Jesus with me emotionally speaking...but clearly confused and through that time of confusion (after leaving organised religion) I transgressed by having a sexual relationship with Joanne which produced Dylan, for which I inherently understood my responsibility even that my mother advised that I 'do the right thing by Joanne' and marry her. I was going to do that anyway.

[center]It's all a learning curve right?[/center]

Well I can say in hindsight that it is absolutely the wrong reason to enter a relationship, but what did I know about that at the time?

I thought I was righting a wrong as best I could.

I was 21 at the time and Joanne was 17.

To be sure, I loved both and tried to do the best I could but my situation was all wrong on that. I was not really prepared to have such responsibilities as I had nothing secure to offer them really. I was the insecure one, and although both of us had dysfunctional childhoods, at least Joanne's family was tight, despite the dysfunction.

But as much as I did love them both, my heart was focused elsewhere.

My time in the particular church group I had chosen had exposed me to conspiracy theory and the unavoidable advents which were biblically prophesied to happen, and my little happy family was part of a bigger picture which was not at all a happy one=we were in an illusion of happiness and trying to be happy about it.

Suffice to say, through a set of incidences I came to the point of realizing that my beliefs had never truly been tested. I had this Love for a personality called Jesus who had promised certain things would unfold, and had also instructed his followers on certain things (including not getting married so one could stay focused upon the primary goal and would remain free to support it) and Joanne was semi supportive of my beliefs in that regard - enough so that she went along with an idea I had in relation to testing my beliefs...she too saw the patterns of Serendipity and Synchronicity involved...

So the plan was for me to follow this instruction;

Matthew 6[linky]

I stopped using money for a time and went out on the road 'like a disciple' but with no particular purpose other than to stop at communities and pray for the Kingdom of GOD to come.
The prayer was simply enough. It went along the lines of;

"Father, whatever it takes for your kingdom to come, may it be done in the hearts and minds and lives of the people of this community"

So I spent a period of time hitch-hiking around the island (Te Waipounamu) a number of times, and through this experience I was introduced to the reality of Serendipity and Synchronicity="How GOD provides the individual with evidence."

No money, no means of supporting myself. I survived.

How is an atheist going to convince me that GOD does not exist, when GOD has convinced me otherwise?

Oh - don't worry, it is not as if they haven't been trying to...

"It's Only Coincidence - The Brain Is Trained To recognize Patterns Which Aren't Really There"

Talk to the hand atheists.

The feet do the walking.

Serendipity and Synchronicity are not easy to notice when one is within the parameters of any human organisation. It is there. It exists therein. We just don't notice it until we step out of the organisation.

Then, when we step back into human organisation, we can identify it like an old friend.

[William]

[center]The Kingdom of God on Earth in this universe.
Come on now, is this universe perfect for the job or not?
Or...is perfection not about where you are but what you do within where you are?

[Linky][/center]

[William]

[center]Burden of Proof - The scientific way to examine "verifiable evidence"
Why it is a fallacy in relation to some ideas of GOD.[/center]


Often atheists insist that all ideas of GOD should be able to be verifiable. In this they are arguing that there should be "verifiable evidence" in relation to all and any ideas of GOD.

However, there are ideas of GOD which - even given they are within the context of the experience of the physical universe, are unable to be shown to be real in terms of what is real which can be scientifically verified.

IF:
The main idea is that GOD is a self aware individual consciousness which possibly exists everywhere simultaneously;
Then:
There is no way in which this can "verifiable" through scientific method.

If there is, then I would like to hear from any atheist who demand "verifiable evidence" of such an entity, to explain what this "verifiable evidence" would have to consist of.

That would be the most logical response I could have to any demand of Burden of Proof in relation to that idea of GOD.

This particular idea of GOD is therefore not a question of science (which scientists could ask or answer using the method of science) and should be more a question of Philosophy in relation to Burden of Truth, which is not scientific but philosophical.

It is about time atheists acknowledge the fallacy of their demand therein, or at the very least explain what this "verifiable evidence" would have to consist of, if it is to be regarded as evidence of a scientific nature.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 15 by William]


"I was 21 at the time and Joanne was 17.

To be sure, I loved both and tried to do the best I could but my situation was all wrong on that. I was not really prepared to have such responsibilities as I had nothing secure to offer them really."

I felt sense of empathy reading your post.
Yes my life was totally different yet the same - young, maturing, learning, trying...

I pasted that section above as i felt you should not have any regrets for marrying your lady. You gave your child a father. You know what it is like not to have a father or not to know whatever who he is or was? (ps hope you keep in touch)

I also feel you've been too hard on yourself. The Lord loves you. That is all. And we try to love Him and do the right things and try again and again and..and that's all He wants from us. He lived as a man for a time and knows human weknesses.
Please stay on the foundation of eternal words of Christ.

[William]

[center]If you want to know if GOD exists - you will need to ask GOD.
Can asking GOD for evidence that GOD exists produce scientifically verifiable evidence?[/center]
[center](Burden of Proof vrs Burden of Truth)[/center]

[center][Linky][/center]

[William]

[Replying to post 15 by William]


"I was 21 at the time and Joanne was 17.

To be sure, I loved both and tried to do the best I could but my situation was all wrong on that. I was not really prepared to have such responsibilities as I had nothing secure to offer them really."

I pasted that section above as i felt you should not have any regrets for marrying your lady.

Relax. I have no regrets.

You gave your child a father.

Nope. I gave my wife a child.

I am a dad to my children as in the seemingly natural affection we all have for our dads, even when they are not good fathers.

You know what it is like not to have a father or not to know whatever who he is or was? (ps hope you keep in touch)

I know what it is like to have a dad.
To be clear, I have no issues with my dad as they were sorted before he died as I made the effort to visit him and he heard and accepted what I had to say about my experience with him, forgiveness was achieved face to face. What more can a son ask for?

In relation to my granddad and issues with him, he died before closure but I found a way in which to communicate with him and find closure through that. For the sake of brevity, lets just say I 'went within' and found a way to forgive.

I also feel you've been too hard on yourself.

Please cease projecting. It is unnecessary and presume things about me you simply cannot know.
In all honesty, I have not been too hard enough on myself at all. I have done what I felt was necessary and would appreciate it if you could accept that at my word.

The Lord loves you. That is all.

And where have I claimed otherwise?

And we try to love Him and do the right things and try again and again and..and that's all He wants from us.

I would appreciate it if you re-read my post and developed more of an understanding of what I was saying in relation to 'The Lord' and 'me'. It is up to ME to decide what it is that 'The Lord' requires of ME.

However, this is not a rebuke - I appreciate that you are trying to console me, which is why I am showing some offense, because I think my post conveys that I am not asking to be consoled, but to be understood.
Which is why I ask you to revisit the post and not frame it as an expression of someone looking to be consoled.

He lived as a man for a time and knows human weknesses.

Not as far as the stories go. He never experienced life as a human the way everyone else does.
For starters, he had knowledge of a particular prior existence. Do you? No you don't and neither do I.
Sure, even despite that, he had moments of pure human fear and even a tantrum or two...in that way yes - he was 'just being human'...

Please stay on the foundation of eternal words of Christ.

Are you suggesting that I am not?

If so, please elaborate.

Thanks.