Theists don't ask questions

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Theists don't ask questions

Post #1

Post by Blastcat »

Hi

I ask a lot of questions.. and SOMETIMES ( but not always ) get answers.

One of the reasons that I do ask a lot of questions, is that I don't actually learn anything new by proselytizing atheism. I do that a bit, of course, I think it's important that people get to know an atheist and what he thinks about the "big questions" and so on, but I am ALSO here to learn what OTHER people think.

So, the questions.

It just occurred to me that I RARELY get any questions from the theists.
Isn't that odd?

____________

Question for debate:


  • Why is it that theists don't seem very curious as to what outsiders to their beliefs think?

____________


:)

TheBeardedDude
Scholar
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:06 pm
Location: Connecticut

Re: Theists don't ask questions

Post #131

Post by TheBeardedDude »

[Replying to post 129 by William]

What is the relevance of this exercise with respect to the idea of the burden of proof?

(Both are in the bible. Both have supernatural attributes attributed to them. Both lack verifiable evidence to demonstrate they exist. They differ in that it is uncommon to find people who believe unicorns are real, but quite common to find people who believe in a god)

Do you not accept that positive claims bear a burden of proof and that rejections of said claims do not?

Let's use another example: someone has been accused of murder. Unfortunately for this person, they live alone and possess no electronic devices. Do they have the burden of proof to show their innocence, or is it the prosecution's burden to demonstrate guilt?

Edit to add: the difference between guilty, not guilty, and innocence. Juries and judges don't find people innocent, only guilty of the charges or not guilty of the charges. A person can still be guilty, but found not guilty. Why?

hoghead1
Guru
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: Theists don't ask questions

Post #132

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 114 by Blastcat]

Judge not, that you be not judged. Before you accuse others of empty, meaningless rhetoric, check you own posts. If theists appear to be doing that, it seems you are equally guilty. Case in point is your present post. It is a prime example of misdirection. It is is way off they OP here, which you yourself set up. I want to stick to the OP. So three
questions:
Question 1 is, Where is your evidence to support your claim that theists don't ask enough questions, especially of you in this forum? All you've done is state your subjective opinion, your personal beliefs. Not good enough. You need to provide evidence that your belief about theists is true. Well, where is it? I'm not about to accept any claims you made when the sole appeal to authority is to your won say-so. Where is your documented list of encounters with theists, elsewhere and here, and the specific posts, where theists did not seem to ask you questions as you feel they should? Without that hard-evidence, your claim is totally bogus.

Question 2 is, What is your evidence that theists should ask you more questions? Who says that submitting laundry lists of questions means you are more open, or that not doing so means you are closed? What do you have to tell theists that they don't already know? If, for example, I am going to study the Book of Job, I am going to read it, along with the major commentaries, and then make my own decision. Why should I even think of listening to you on the subject? How can you provide me with anything more than the unqualified opinion of an unqualified person? Why should I listen to you any more than I should listen to me neighbor's opinion on my health?

Question 3 is, Where is your evidence that theists do not support their position? Again, all you have provided is your own say-so. Specifically what theistic literature have your examined? How many of the arguments for God proposed by the major thinkers have you actually read? What is your rebuttal to each of them?

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 15264
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 975 times
Been thanked: 1801 times
Contact:

Re: Theists don't ask questions

Post #133

Post by William »

TheBeardedDude wrote: [Replying to post 129 by William]
What is the relevance of this exercise with respect to the idea of the burden of proof?
Call it a form of questioning atheist positions...
Both are in the bible.
Okay.
Both have supernatural attributes attributed to them.


Incorrect. The unicorn is mentioned for its natural strength.
Read the link below and then get back to me.

Why Does The Bible Mention Unicorns?

In regard to the biblical God, please explain to me what you are meaning by "supernatural attributes".
Both lack verifiable evidence to demonstrate they exist.


One is of form, the other is not. Please explain how "verifiable evidence" can be made available in relation to something which has no known form.

They differ in that it is uncommon to find people who believe unicorns are real, but quite common to find people who believe in a god
Therefore, why are you making a false analogy between the two ideas and trying to use that as an argument?
Do you not accept that positive claims bear a burden of proof and that rejections of said claims do not?
If I said, "GOD exists", then that is a positive claim is it not?

IF 'yes'
THEN more is required from me in relation to what I mean by "GOD', correct?
IF 'yes'
THEN in providing more data, it is found that the idea being described cannot be produced through "verifiable evidence" for logical reasons, there is no case for burden of proof to be enforced. It is a fallacy to demand such.

Do you agree? If not, then why not?
Let's use another example: someone has been accused of murder. Unfortunately for this person, they live alone and possess no electronic devices. Do they have the burden of proof to show their innocence, or is it the prosecution's burden to demonstrate guilt?
Bad analogy. What guilt is there, associated with having knowledge of an idea of GOD?
Edit to add: the difference between guilty, not guilty, and innocence. Juries and judges don't find people innocent, only guilty of the charges or not guilty of the charges. A person can still be guilty, but found not guilty. Why?
Still a bad analogy. Someone who claims GOD exists is not guilty of anything. Is not even guilty of being unable to provide "verifiable evidence" because of the nature of their subjective experience in relation to that.

Atheists would be far better off understanding this and trying a different approach toward theists belief systems.
Rubbishing, mocking, belittling, demanding "verifiable evidence" etc simply won't cut it because these are dishonest approaches, and fail to respect the sacredness of an individuals experience in relation to their own understanding of what GOD is.

Only if said theists broke the law and murdered others claiming GOD told them to, can guilt and GOD be linked with said act. Giving testament to the power of an idea of GOD in ones life, is not and should never be considered a thing to be ashamed of and thus requiring some sort of social judgement and condemnation for holding such a position.

User avatar
Aardvark
Student
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:34 am
Location: Black Country, Midlands, England

Re: Theists don't ask questions

Post #134

Post by Aardvark »

Zzyzx wrote:...promoters of religion ...have not presented anything more substantial than unverifiable tales, testimonials, opinions, and conjectures (ancient or modern). ... Why should one of them be any more, or less, convincing than others?
Why indeed.
My working hypothesis is this:
if a parochial collection of folk tales is all one has,
one has no perspective,
no basis on which to form a question like
'Why is Job like so many other tales?'

Instead one finds oneself awed by it
as by a revelation. :shock:
To such (formerly myself too I should add)
the narrative has a 'wow'/'brain fiz' effect.

We do much the same when giving quotes (theist or otherwise)
they're like 'magic' words,
a shorthand used for 'semiotic' purposes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics
like saying 'Goldiocks Zone'
instead of explaining all that that means.

Pearls of great price are sown before us
as if the Question Posed (eg. by the book of Job -
'Why do bad things happen to good people?'
or Isaiah53's "Who has believed us?")
were of itself an Answer;
as if the simple Wonder of the poetry
implied the existence of Goldilocks.
As it were.

Are we, perhaps, being dreamed at?
Does a lack of curiosity not tell us that,
in terms of empathy at least,
such individuals are asleep?

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 15264
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 975 times
Been thanked: 1801 times
Contact:

Re: Theists don't ask questions

Post #135

Post by William »

[Replying to post 134 by Aardvark]

It would depend upon the nature of the individuals subjective experience and in that, how are you too know for sure that these assumptions you place in poetic form are indeed the truth of the matter?

You do not and you cannot.

User avatar
OnceConvinced
Savant
Posts: 8969
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:22 pm
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 67 times
Contact:

Re: Theists don't ask questions

Post #136

Post by OnceConvinced »

theophile wrote:
ANOTHER QUESTION FOR ATHEISTS:

How can you possibly claim such things of biblical literature when it is evident you haven't given it the time?
I for one have spent my whole life studying biblical literature. 40 Plus years. However, my views on it now are far different to my views on it as a Christian.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

User avatar
Aardvark
Student
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:34 am
Location: Black Country, Midlands, England

Re: Theists don't ask questions

Post #137

Post by Aardvark »

William wrote: [Replying to post 134 by Aardvark]

It would depend upon the nature of the individuals subjective experience and in that, how are you too know for sure that these assumptions you place in poetic form are indeed the truth of the matter?

You do not and you cannot.
Hmm. No question in that post. Never mind eh?

No, one cannot know the specifics of a persons subjective experience,
but one CAN discern the 'semiotic' meaning in verses quoted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics

eg. Isaiah53 and Job have the emotional force of any tragedy
and they really are pearls of great price
because such provide us with a vital sense of release. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis

When people quote those verses, waxing lyrical in this thread,
I can at least say "my heart beats like thine".
Regardless of their in-curiosity about wider philosophy
they fit into mine.

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Theists don't ask questions

Post #138

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 117 by Clownboat]




[center]
A king for a day[/center]

Clownboat wrote:
Blastcat wrote:I await the so called evidence.
William wrote:Yes your highness.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. - Socrates
I think most of us would take his "Highness" comment as a sacrasm.. BUT.. then I thought to myself, "He just called me a king right there... ".

Cats love to be called "Your highness".

I think he should always call me "Your highness" from now on.


_______________

FOR THE RECORD:

Everyone can just go ahead and call me "Your highness" from now on if they like.

_______________


:)

TheBeardedDude
Scholar
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:06 pm
Location: Connecticut

Re: Theists don't ask questions

Post #139

Post by TheBeardedDude »

William wrote:
TheBeardedDude wrote: [Replying to post 129 by William]
What is the relevance of this exercise with respect to the idea of the burden of proof?
Call it a form of questioning atheist positions...
Both are in the bible.
Okay.
Both have supernatural attributes attributed to them.


Incorrect. The unicorn is mentioned for its natural strength.
Read the link below and then get back to me.

Why Does The Bible Mention Unicorns?

In regard to the biblical God, please explain to me what you are meaning by "supernatural attributes".
Both lack verifiable evidence to demonstrate they exist.


One is of form, the other is not. Please explain how "verifiable evidence" can be made available in relation to something which has no known form.

They differ in that it is uncommon to find people who believe unicorns are real, but quite common to find people who believe in a god
Therefore, why are you making a false analogy between the two ideas and trying to use that as an argument?
Do you not accept that positive claims bear a burden of proof and that rejections of said claims do not?
If I said, "GOD exists", then that is a positive claim is it not?

IF 'yes'
THEN more is required from me in relation to what I mean by "GOD', correct?
IF 'yes'
THEN in providing more data, it is found that the idea being described cannot be produced through "verifiable evidence" for logical reasons, there is no case for burden of proof to be enforced. It is a fallacy to demand such.

Do you agree? If not, then why not?
Let's use another example: someone has been accused of murder. Unfortunately for this person, they live alone and possess no electronic devices. Do they have the burden of proof to show their innocence, or is it the prosecution's burden to demonstrate guilt?
Bad analogy. What guilt is there, associated with having knowledge of an idea of GOD?
Edit to add: the difference between guilty, not guilty, and innocence. Juries and judges don't find people innocent, only guilty of the charges or not guilty of the charges. A person can still be guilty, but found not guilty. Why?
Still a bad analogy. Someone who claims GOD exists is not guilty of anything. Is not even guilty of being unable to provide "verifiable evidence" because of the nature of their subjective experience in relation to that.

Atheists would be far better off understanding this and trying a different approach toward theists belief systems.
Rubbishing, mocking, belittling, demanding "verifiable evidence" etc simply won't cut it because these are dishonest approaches, and fail to respect the sacredness of an individuals experience in relation to their own understanding of what GOD is.

Only if said theists broke the law and murdered others claiming GOD told them to, can guilt and GOD be linked with said act. Giving testament to the power of an idea of GOD in ones life, is not and should never be considered a thing to be ashamed of and thus requiring some sort of social judgement and condemnation for holding such a position.
"Call it a form of questioning atheist positions... "

There remains only one atheist position: a lack of belief in a god(s)

"Incorrect. The unicorn is mentioned for its natural strength."

Something that doesn't exist can't have natural strength. If it doesn't exist, then any attribute attributed to it is fictional. I don't care why people try to justify it being in the bible, this is irrelevant to me. Unicorns are not real and never have been.

"In regard to the biblical God, please explain to me what you are meaning by "supernatural attributes". "

Supernatural: does not exist in nature. Meaning that god is supposed to be able to do things that nothing else can do within the natural realm. Nature is limited, but god is supposed to be unlimited, that would make god's "unlimitedness" supernatural.

"One is of form, the other is not. Please explain how "verifiable evidence" can be made available in relation to something which has no known form. "

Things don't need "form" to be verified with evidence. Opinions don't have form either, but you can verify the existence of opinions with evidence by asking for opinions and documenting them. Light doesn't have form, nor does energy of any kind. Dark matter and dark energy have no known forms, but we have evidence they exist too.

"Therefore, why are you making a false analogy between the two ideas and trying to use that as an argument? "

Not liking an analogy doesn't make it a false analogy. I used unicorns as an example hoping we could both find common agreement that unicorns can have no evidence verifying their nonexistence, highlighting that the burden of proof is on the one claiming they exist instead of the one rejecting the claim. The exact same argument is what I use when rejecting god claims and the shifting of the burden of proof.

"If I said, "GOD exists", then that is a positive claim is it not? "

correct

"THEN more is required from me in relation to what I mean by "GOD', correct? "

correct

"THEN in providing more data, it is found that the idea being described cannot be produced through "verifiable evidence" for logical reasons, there is no case for burden of proof to be enforced. It is a fallacy to demand such. "

incorrect

Either something exists, allowing you to know something about it, or something does not exist and attributes are made up about it. If you believe you know specific properties of your god, then there must be a way of verifying that knowledge. Otherwise, you don't know anything about your god because you couldn't possibly know anything about it if nothing about it can be verified. It isn't a fallacy to expect evidence of existence for something claimed to exist.

"Bad analogy. What guilt is there, associated with having knowledge of an idea of GOD? "

Once again, not liking or understanding an analogy doesn't make it "bad." The analogy is intended to discuss the existence or nonexistence of a god. I'll elaborate further by now comparing the example to the god question specifically (this is an argument I have heard used elsewhere by people like Matt Dilahunty, so it is not my own).

God is the subject on trial. We can either find god "guilty" of existing through the evidence presented or "not guilty" because of a lack of verifiable evidence. No evidence can be presented to show innocence, all one can do is try and disprove or poke holes in the evidence produced to try and show guilt. With no evidence of a god to show it being "guilty" of existence, one might reasonably conclude that god being "not guilty" of existence is sufficient reason to conclude that gods are truly "innocent" of existing.

"Still a bad analogy. Someone who claims GOD exists is not guilty of anything. Is not even guilty of being unable to provide "verifiable evidence" because of the nature of their subjective experience in relation to that. "

You completely misunderstood the analogy. You aren't on trial, your god is.

"Atheists would be far better off understanding this and trying a different approach toward theists belief systems. "

Take a step back sometimes and ask yourself "Do I understand what they are actually saying? Do I understand it well enough to make assumptions about it?" Rather than making assumptions because of a lack of understanding, ask for clarification.

"Rubbishing, mocking, belittling, demanding "verifiable evidence" etc simply won't cut it because these are dishonest approaches, and fail to respect the sacredness of an individuals experience in relation to their own understanding of what GOD is. "

You are now accusing me of being dishonest? I see nothing wrong with asking for evidence of a god before determining that one exists. If such evidence does exist, I want to see it. This isn't being dishonest. Don't accuse me of such intellectual manipulation and I won't accuse you of being intentionally obtuse.

"Only if said theists broke the law and murdered others claiming GOD told them to, can guilt and GOD be linked with said act. Giving testament to the power of an idea of GOD in ones life, is not and should never be considered a thing to be ashamed of and thus requiring some sort of social judgement and condemnation for holding such a position."

I have no idea what this ramble is about, but I suspect it is from a lack of understanding what my analogy means.




The courtroom analogy is and always has been to demonstrate where the burden of proof lies. You never answered my question on this. Does the claimant (the state prosecutor) have the burden of proof, or the defendant (my hypothetical hermit without electronic devoices)? Does the defendant have to prove with evidence their innocence, or is it the prosecution's job to demonstrate (with evidence) guilt?

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10038
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1228 times
Been thanked: 1621 times

Re: Theists don't ask questions

Post #140

Post by Clownboat »

William wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
Blastcat wrote:I await the so called evidence.
William wrote:Yes your highness.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. - Socrates
What? 'Slander'? Don't be silly Clownboat. It was a lighthearted ribbing in reply to the notion that things have to be brought to someone on a plate while the demanding 'waits'. (is waited upon).

A bit along the lines of what a parent might say to a demanding child...'when did your last servant die and who made you boss of the rules?

Surely it is that obvious. Yes sure it is, especially in context to the rest of my post. I don't know how anyone could miss it.
He informed you that he is awaiting evidence for gods before believing.
You did not provide evidence and you mocked him instead.

You seem to have lost when it comes to the 'lack of evidence point'.

Surely it is obvious that if you had evidence, you would have presented it in lieu of the light hearted name calling. If you do have evidence for the gods, now would be a good time to present it.

You also misconstrue his intent about evidence IMO. He is not acting like a spoiled child demanding to be waited on. He is hearing fantastical claims from people and quite appropriately awaiting evidence before believing.

Would you buy my ocean front property in Arizona without evidence that I have it?
No? Not without evidence? Fine your highness! <--- Said for example purposes only.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

Post Reply