Created immortal (indestructable)?

[JehovahsWitness]

To my knowledge "immortality" is only spoken of as being a reward for certain faithful. What is the scriptural basis for saying "humans" were originally created immortal*?

- do you believe Satan is immortal?
- do you believe the wicked are immortal?

- do you believe God can destroy them (as in put an end to their existence) but will never choose to do this?

- do you believe God cannot (does not have the ability to) destroy them (put an end to their existence)?

Why?


*by immortal I mean basically "indestructable"

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 51 by Claire Evans]

I believe souls are eternal.

You forgot to say why.

I don't believe it can't be destroyed like energy can't be destroyed.

I believe souls are not eternal because man is mortal and souls die.

Scripture says only God has immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16.

Jesus was mortal yet He rose from the dead and is now immortal. That's the whole point of promising us eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:16 doesn't gel with Revelation because it says Satan will be tormented forever and ever.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 80 by William]

Thank you first your link, I am very familiar with the word elohim and it's use in scripture but not with how you seemed to be using the word. Your wiki link did not help in this regard.

You seemed (correct me if I'm wrong ) to be using it to refer to some sub-group of individuals but who or what this group is wasn't clear.

[Claire Evans]

Acts 16.16-18 "As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had ya spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling."

Divination: the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.

How do demons and Satan foretell the future if they are not omniscient?

QUESTION Is the power of divination evidence of omniscience?

No. Firstly note that divination is defined as "the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means", nowhere is it defined as the ability to predict the future with 100% accuracy or the possession of omniscience. The fact that the girl in the bible book of Acts is spoken of as having "brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling." indicates she had a measure of success but to extrapolate from that, that her enablers were omniscient is like concluding that because your teenager can successfully operate the microwave he can fly a plane. Being able to do something is not synonymous with being able to do everything.

My parents played with a glasie, glasie, which is similar to a ouija board, when they were first dating and the demon was spot on in its foretelling of the future. They said my parents would marry if though they weren't even dating at the time. They were dating other people. The problem is that people seriously underestimate the power of Satan.

But how do demons and Satan foretell the future if they are not omniscient?

Satan and the demons are unseen powerful and extremely intelligent spirit beings, they have lived for countless millennia, can travel at great speeds and the bible indicates are far superior to humans in every way. The book of Job indicated that Satan at the very least can manipulate the weather, cause an illness, and kill or rather cause the death of a human. Since that is the case how difficult do you think it would be for a spirit to fool or trick a human into parting with his money and more importantly his obedience to divine law by communicating a future event and then causing it to happen (or conversely, preventing a scheduled event from occurring)? All of us have the power to predict certain future events depending on the level of control we have (a generous friend could predict you finding a bag full of money if he intended to leave one for you and your neighbour could predict the exact date and time of the death of your dog, if he intended to poison it). Demons have much more power and control than any neighbour or friends and evidently they count on the gullibility of individuals to see this as evidence omniscience.

It's not prediction due to what is logical what the outcome will be or likely to be. You say demons have more power. Where did this power come from?

Does the bible indicates limits to satanic knowledge?

Indeed, for example in the bible book of Esther, Haman had someone [evidently an astrologer] cast Pur, that is, the Lot, . . . from day to day and from month to month, in order to determine the most favorable time to have Jehovahs people exterminated (see Es 3:7-9). However, the divination failed to reveal that the plot would actually be foiled and that Haman himself would be killed on the very day chosen. What can we conclude about the extent of knowledge of a fortune teller that identified a person's "lucky day" and it turned out to be the day of their death?

Far from indicating His the extent of his access to knowledge of the future is a shared with others, Jehovah identifies himself alone as the only one that can predict the future with 100% accuracy. Note the following scriptures:

I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done. (Isaiah 46:9, 10a)

Who is there like me? Let him call out and tell it and prove it to me! ... Let them tell both the things to come and what will yet happen. - Isaiah 44:7

I know the Bible is considered the ultimate authority here in this forum but maybe just consider what is written is fallacious. Back in Isaiah's day, there was a keen agenda to make out that Yahweh was the ultimate being. It was to persuade polytheists to worship Yahweh. Yahweh was previously one of many gods then converted to the only God. They can't both me right. For example:


He is exalted above all gods (97:7)

Then Numbers 33:3-4

They journeyed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the next day after the Passover the sons of Israel started out boldly in the sight of all the Egyptians, 4while the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn whom the LORD had struck down among them. The LORD had also executed judgments on their gods

Isaiah 45:5

I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

See the contradiction? How can they both be considered the truth?

CONCLUSION While the bible does indicate Satan and the demons can predict the future to some extent, neither that nor fortune telling or divination cannot reasonably be seen as indicative of omniscience. Indeed there are a number of explicit statements in the bible that Jehovah is has no peers when it comes to the knowledge of future events.

[Claire Evans]

Matthew 16:23: But he turned and said to Peter, Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.

Clearly the presence of Satan was with them making him omnipresent.

This has got to be one of the most ludicrous arguments I have come across in a long time. Are you suggesting that because Satan may be reported to be at a particular location at a particular time this is evidence of omnipresence?

"Omnipresence or ubiquity is the property of being present everywhere." Wikipedia

"Omnipresence" present everywhere at the same time
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/omnipresent

Being somewhere (for example behind or in front of Jesus or Peter) cannot reasonably be considered evidence that one is everywhere at the same time. This is like claiming that if a student's presence in class is duly noted by his teacher, the student in question is omnipresent and simultaneously at home smoking pot with his girlfriend.


JW

Do you really believe I'm talking about Satan being physicallypresent at all places at once? He is a spirit like God. If God can be omnipresent, then why can't Satan as a spirit be everywhere at once?

The scriptures also prove that Satan has put a thought in Peter's head indicating omniscience.

[JehovahsWitness]

Matthew 16:23: But he turned and said to Peter, Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.

Clearly the presence of Satan was with them making him omnipresent.

The scriptures also prove that Satan has put a thought in Peter's head indicating omniscience.

What in the Scriptures indicates that Satan was present at two or more places at the samet time? Are you suggesting being present anywhere is enough to prove omnipresence ?

[JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION Is the power of divination evidence of omniscience?

No. Firstly note that divination is defined as "the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means", nowhere is it defined as the ability to predict the future with 100% accuracy or the possession of omniscience. The fact that the girl in the bible book of Acts is spoken of as having "brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling." indicates she had a measure of success but to extrapolate from that, that her enablers were omniscient is like concluding that because your teenager can successfully operate the microwave he can fly a plane. Being able to do something is not synonymous with being able to do everything.

My parents played with a glasie, glasie, which is similar to a ouija board, when they were first dating and the demon was spot on in its foretelling of the future. They said my parents would marry if though they weren't even dating at the time. They were dating other people. The problem is that people seriously underestimate the power of Satan.

If your story of how your parents got together was to illustrate the power of Satan, I would agree, it does look'as if Satan communicated with your parents. I do not see how it disproves any of the points I made though.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 51 by Claire Evans]

I believe souls are eternal.

You forgot to say why.

I don't believe it can't be destroyed like energy can't be destroyed.

I believe souls are not eternal because man is mortal and souls die.

Scripture says only God has immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16.

Jesus was mortal yet He rose from the dead and is now immortal. That's the whole point of promising us eternal life.

Precisely.

1 Corinthians 15:45

23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

No one else.

Not unbelievers, not Satan, not the beast, not the false prophet.

1 Timothy 6:16 doesn't gel with Revelation because it says Satan will be tormented for ever and ever.

No, Revelation doesn't get with Timothy, and must do so.

Think about it.

The Timothy passage is a plain statement of what literally is. It requires no interpretation.

Not so the Revelation passage.

Revelation is a book full of metaphors and symbolic language, which are used to portray spiritual realities present and future.

It requires interpretation that harmonises with the teachings found in the many more straightforward scriptures such as the letters.

[Claire Evans]

Matthew 16:23: But he turned and said to Peter, Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.

Clearly the presence of Satan was with them making him omnipresent.

The scriptures also prove that Satan has put a thought in Peter's head indicating omniscience.

What in the Scriptures indicates that Satan was present at two or more places at the samet time? Are you suggesting being present anywhere is enough to prove omnipresence ?

Before I answer that question, do you believe God can be at more than one place at a time and why? Don't recite scriptures, I just want to know how it can be done.

[Claire Evans]

Satan can't tempt us if he doesn't know our thoughts and weaknesses.

This is an unreasonable conclusion to come to. Anyone can tempt another if they have the desire and enough information gained through observation.

A prostitute can tempt a teenage boy to commit immortality with her if she knows enough about teenage boys and/or she has seen him in an particular area casting looks in her direction.

A smoker can tempt a colleague who has recently given up smoking to have one more because he knows what the individual is feeling, not because he is mind reading but because he knows the addictive nature of the habit.

When someone tempts a person to do something they have hitherto resisted, whether that is to take a high paying job, office stationary without permission or that extra piece of cake, and say "Go on I know you want to!" It is not because they can indeed literally read the other persons mind but because they can accurately "read" the situation and have sufficient knowledge of human nature in general and that individual's particular weaknesses to make an accurate assessment of what they are thinking. Very rarely do people reply, "Wow, yes I DO want more cake, you're right... you must be omniscient!"

Honesty, can one person tempt many different people in different locations with separate temptations at the same time? When you pray, doesn't that make God present with you and another when they pray at the same time? Likewise, when Satan puts a thought in one's head, he is there but he is also there with the person he is tempting on the other side of the world at the same time.

Satan has had thousands of years to observe human nature, he knows our weaknesses as a group and by observing us as individuals can quickly discern our particular 'poison' through our previous actions, interests, family background, personality traits ect. Given that temptation is possible even between fellow humans it is unreasonable to extrapolate Satans ability to tempt them as evidence of omniscience.


JW

If Satan is not omnipresent, then he can't possibility get through 7 million people to tempt them at a time. That means there'd barely be any evil. When a person performs a Satanic ritual, he is there. There will be others performed at the same time someone else in the world. He will be there also.

[Claire Evans]

QUESTION Is the power of divination evidence of omniscience?

No. Firstly note that divination is defined as "the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means", nowhere is it defined as the ability to predict the future with 100% accuracy or the possession of omniscience. The fact that the girl in the bible book of Acts is spoken of as having "brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling." indicates she had a measure of success but to extrapolate from that, that her enablers were omniscient is like concluding that because your teenager can successfully operate the microwave he can fly a plane. Being able to do something is not synonymous with being able to do everything.

My parents played with a glasie, glasie, which is similar to a ouija board, when they were first dating and the demon was spot on in its foretelling of the future. They said my parents would marry if though they weren't even dating at the time. They were dating other people. The problem is that people seriously underestimate the power of Satan.

If your story of how your parents got together was to illustrate the power of Satan, I would agree, it does look'as if Satan communicated with your parents. I do not see how it disproves any of the points I made though.

It means he is omniscient. You don't believe Satan is omniscient.