Created immortal (indestructable)?

[JehovahsWitness]

To my knowledge "immortality" is only spoken of as being a reward for certain faithful. What is the scriptural basis for saying "humans" were originally created immortal*?

- do you believe Satan is immortal?
- do you believe the wicked are immortal?

- do you believe God can destroy them (as in put an end to their existence) but will never choose to do this?

- do you believe God cannot (does not have the ability to) destroy them (put an end to their existence)?

Why?


*by immortal I mean basically "indestructable"

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 51 by Claire Evans]

I believe souls are eternal.

You forgot to say why.

I don't believe it can't be destroyed like energy can't be destroyed.

I believe souls are not eternal because man is mortal and souls die.

Scripture says only God has immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16.

[JehovahsWitness]

Acts 16.16-18 "As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had ya spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling."

Divination: the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.

How do demons and Satan foretell the future if they are not omniscient?

QUESTION Is the power of divination evidence of omniscience?

No. Firstly note that divination is defined as "the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means", nowhere is it defined as the ability to predict the future with 100% accuracy or the possession of omniscience. The fact that the girl in the bible book of Acts is spoken of as having "brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling." indicates she had a measure of success but to extrapolate from that, that her enablers were omniscient is like concluding that because your teenager can successfully operate the microwave he can fly a plane. Being able to do something is not synonymous with being able to do everything.


But how do demons and Satan foretell the future if they are not omniscient?

Satan and the demons are unseen powerful and extremely intelligent spirit beings, they have lived for countless millennia, can travel at great speeds and the bible indicates are far superior to humans in every way. The book of Job indicated that Satan at the very least can manipulate the weather, cause an illness, and kill or rather cause the death of a human. Since that is the case how difficult do you think it would be for a spirit to fool or trick a human into parting with his money and more importantly his obedience to divine law by communicating a future event and then causing it to happen (or conversely, preventing a scheduled event from occurring)? All of us have the power to predict certain future events depending on the level of control we have (a generous friend could predict you finding a bag full of money if he intended to leave one for you and your neighbour could predict the exact date and time of the death of your dog, if he intended to poison it). Demons have much more power and control than any neighbour or friends and evidently they count on the gullibility of individuals to see this as evidence omniscience.

Does the bible indicates limits to satanic knowledge?

Indeed, for example in the bible book of Esther, Haman had “someone [evidently an astrologer] cast Pur, that is, the Lot, . . . from day to day and from month to month,� in order to determine the most favorable time to have Jehovah’s people exterminated (see Es 3:7-9). However, the divination failed to reveal that the plot would actually be foiled and that Haman himself would be killed on the very day chosen. What can we conclude about the extent of knowledge of a fortune teller that identified a person's "lucky day" and it turned out to be the day of their death?

Far from indicating His the extent of his access to knowledge of the future is a shared with others, Jehovah identifies himself alone as the only one that can predict the future with 100% accuracy. Note the following scriptures:

I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done.� (Isaiah 46:9, 10a)

Who is there like me? Let him call out and tell it and prove it to me! ... Let them tell both the things to come and what will yet happen. - Isaiah 44:7

CONCLUSION While the bible does indicate Satan and the demons can predict the future to some extent, neither that nor fortune telling or divination cannot reasonably be seen as indicative of omniscience. Indeed there are a number of explicit statements in the bible that Jehovah is has no peers when it comes to the knowledge of future events.

[JehovahsWitness]

Matthew 16:23: But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.�

Clearly the presence of Satan was with them making him omnipresent.

This has got to be one of the most ludicrous arguments I have come across in a long time. Are you suggesting that because Satan may be reported to be at a particular location at a particular time this is evidence of omnipresence?

"Omnipresence or ubiquity is the property of being present everywhere." Wikipedia

"Omnipresence" present everywhere at the same time
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/omnipresent

Being somewhere (for example behind or in front of Jesus or Peter) cannot reasonably be considered evidence that one is everywhere at the same time. This is like claiming that if a student's presence in class is duly noted by his teacher, the student in question is omnipresent and simultaneously at home smoking pot with his girlfriend.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Satan can't tempt us if he doesn't know our thoughts and weaknesses.

This is an unreasonable conclusion to come to. Anyone can tempt another if they have the desire and enough information gained through observation.

A prostitute can tempt a teenage boy to commit immortality with her if she knows enough about teenage boys and/or she has seen him in an particular area casting looks in her direction.

A smoker can tempt a colleague who has recently given up smoking to have one more because he knows what the individual is feeling, not because he is mind reading but because he knows the addictive nature of the habit.

When someone tempts a person to do something they have hitherto resisted, whether that is to take a high paying job, office stationary without permission or that extra piece of cake, and say "Go on I know you want to!" It is not because they can indeed literally read the other person’s mind but because they can accurately "read" the situation and have sufficient knowledge of human nature in general and that individual's particular weaknesses to make an accurate assessment of what they are thinking. Very rarely do people reply, "Wow, yes I DO want more cake, you're right... you must be omniscient!"

Satan has had thousands of years to observe human nature, he knows our weaknesses as a group and by observing us as individuals can quickly discern our particular 'poison' through our previous actions, interests, family background, personality traits ect. Given that temptation is possible even between fellow humans it is unreasonable to extrapolate Satan’s ability to tempt them as evidence of omniscience.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 69 by Claire Evans]

Can you not think for yourself independently of the Bible, please? It has been manipulated in some parts.

Firstly I not come here to read personal remarks, I try to stick to the debate and argumentation and leave quips about the poster's intellect aside. I expect the same from my fellow posters.

I asked for Biblical support for your claims, you have every right to reply that the bible is unreliable in parts but this is hardly a satisfactory response especially in this particular sub-forum. If, as you have done, you are going to use the bible to try and support your claims it is inconsistent to question the authenticity of the parts of that same book that challenge your personal conclusions.

[JehovahsWitness]

So God created Satan knowing he would cause ultimate suffering in this world yet chose to make him anyway.

Being ABLE to know everything isn't the same as knowing everything any more than being able to cook anything is the same as cooking everything. If you can do something you still have to chose whether you WILL do it or not. Just because God could know what the angel that became Satan would do, doesnt mean he necessarily chose to.

For example, God can destroy everything and everyone any time he chooses, evidently He has not chosen to USE that power at the present time. So clearly God can have the ablility to do something yet be selective as to if, when and to what extent he will use that ability . In a similar way, God CAN know everything about any of His creation, including what choices we will make in the future; more often than not however, he choses to learn about our choices when they make them, in other words he uses his powers SELECTIVELY.

How can God select what He doesn't want to know?

The above can be likened to buying a book. One can decide to real the conclusing chapter first so you know how the characters turn out, you can scan down the chapters and select the particular portions of interest to know what the character does in a particular circumstance, or you can read the book one page at a time in order from the first page to the last in chronological order. God can "read" how any of His creatures turns out but it seems for the most part he has chosen to find out about their choices 'one page at a time'.

QUESTION Is not such a selective use of foreknowledge putting the lives of others needlessly at risk?

No. An all mighty God can never have things run out of control, meaning there will never be a situation that will ultimately result in irreparable damage. Creating free moral agents would always introduce the possibility that they make bad choices, but if they are to enjoy an honest open relationship, those choices must be dealt with in "real time" as they happen.

• - Would it be considered a fair trial if the judge already knows the accused will be found guilty?
  - How sincere will the witness testimonies be if they know the judge already knows what they will say even before they open their mouths?

CONCLUSION God uses all his abilities in perfect balance with his qualities such as love, wisdom and justice. Though He can forsee every detail in everyone's future His omnipotence is in no way negated by his choice to be selective in its use.

Sideshow: Did God know that Adam & Eve would sin?






RELATED POSTS

Is God SELECTIVE in his use of his powers of foreknowledge?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p848314

How can an OMNISCIENT God not know something?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 98#p894598

How can a perfect God "regret"? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1014669#p1014669

Does God "changing his mind" mean that he ' He failed to get it right the first time'?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p895644

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

OMNISCIENCE , OMNIPOTENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE

[William]

So God created Satan knowing he would cause ultimate suffering in this world yet chose to make him anyway.

Being ABLE to know everything isn't the same as knowing everything any more than being able to cook anything is the same as cooking everything. If you can do something you still have to chose whether you WILL do it or not. Just because God could know what the angel that became Satan would do, doesnt mean he necessarily chose to.

For example, God can destroy everything and everyone any time he chooses, evidently He has not chosen to USE that power at the present time. So clearly God can have the ability to do something yet be selective as to if, when and to what extent he will use that ability . In a similar way, God CAN know everything about any of His creation, including what choices we will make in the future; more often than not however, he choses to learn about our choices when they make them, in other words he uses his powers SELECTIVELY.

How can God select what He doesn't want to know?

The above can be likened to buying a book. One can decide to real the conclusing chapter first so you know how the characters turn out, you can scan down the chapters and select the particular portions of interest to know what the character does in a particular circumstance, or you can read the book one page at a time in order from the first page to the last in chronological order. God can "read" how any of His creatures turns out but it seems for the most part he has chosen to find out about their choices 'one page at a time'.

QUESTION Is not such a selective use of foreknowledge putting the lives of others needlessly at risk?

No. An all mighty God can never have things run out of control, meaning there will never be a situation that will ultimately result in irreparable damage. Creating free moral agents would always introduce the possibility that they make bad choices, but if they are to enjoy an honest open relationship, those choices must be dealt with in "real time" as they happen.

• - Would it be considered a fair trial if the judge already knows the accused will be found guilty?
  - How sincere will the witness testimonies be if they know the judge already knows what they will say even before they open their mouths?

CONCLUSION God uses all his abilities in perfect balance with his qualities such as love, wisdom and justice. Though He can forsee every detail in everyone's future His omnipotence is in no way negated by his choice to be selective in its use.

Sideshow: Did God know that Adam & Eve would sin?

Each to their own of course, but I have no problem with the idea that GOD did indeed know that Adam would fall.

Your argument - JehovahsWitness - seems to be saying that GOD can choose not to use his abilities when it suits but this tends to paint a picture of distancing oneself from ones involvement by simple being in denial re that involvement.

The Elohim may not have been sure of the exact outcome and may even have hoped in the potential of the humans to rise above the natural tendency to cover their butts in the case of fear and shame and perhaps even projected what they would do in the same situation onto the couple and pronounced the couple 'guilty' from that position.
However, the Elohim obviously understand what it is like to be naturally Elohim, but not what it is like to be naturally Human.

You seem to think GOD as being perfect but the bible stories do not paint that picture. The picture painted is one of a species (Elohim) far more highly advanced in the sciences and able to do great awesome fear inspiring things in relation to humans but who were also woefully lacking any understanding (and thus empathy) as to what it was actually like to BE human.

Perhaps too busy trying to BE GOD? Well they had a lot to learn in that department too, by all accounts...

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 77 by William]

who were also woefully lacking any understanding (and thus empathy) as to what it was actually like to BE human.

God does know that.

He found out by becoming one himself, when the Logos became flesh, became human.

Perhaps too busy trying to BE GOD? Well they had a lot to learn in that department too, by all accounts...

Says a human.

No human is in any position to grade how well or badly God is doing at being God.

None of us have been there and done that.

[JehovahsWitness]

You seem to think GOD as being perfect but the bible stories do not paint that picture.

Yes that is a correct appraisal. I think of God as perfect because that is what the bible says he is.

DEUT 32:4
The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust;Righteous and upright is he.

I'm sorry I don't know who this "Elohim species" is so I can't comment on this point.

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, THE DIVINE NAME and ...THE TRINITY

[William]

You seem to think GOD as being perfect but the bible stories do not paint that picture.

Yes that is a correct appraisal. I think of God as perfect because that is what the bible says he is.

Does the bible explain what perfection is, or is that left up to you to decide?
Or are you saying that the pictures painted re the GOD, is how perfection is to be interpreted?

DEUT 32:4
The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust;Righteous and upright is he.

Your argument - JehovahsWitness - seems to be saying that GOD can choose not to use his abilities when it suits but this tends to paint a picture of distancing oneself from ones involvement by simple being in denial re that involvement.

The Elohim may not have been sure of the exact outcome and may even have hoped in the potential of the humans to rise above the natural tendency to cover their butts in the case of fear and shame and perhaps even projected what they would do in the same situation onto the couple and pronounced the couple 'guilty' from that position.
However, the Elohim obviously understand what it is like to be naturally Elohim, but not what it is like to be naturally Human.

You seem to think GOD as being perfect but the bible stories do not paint that picture. The picture painted is one of a species (Elohim) far more highly advanced in the sciences and able to do great awesome fear inspiring things in relation to humans but who were also woefully lacking any understanding (and thus empathy) as to what it was actually like to BE human.

Perhaps too busy trying to BE GOD? Well they had a lot to learn in that department too, by all accounts...

I'm sorry I don't know who this "Elohim species" is so I can't comment on this point.

Okay. Here is a [link] - if you could have a read up on that and get back to me, that would be awesome.