Created immortal (indestructable)?

[JehovahsWitness]

To my knowledge "immortality" is only spoken of as being a reward for certain faithful. What is the scriptural basis for saying "humans" were originally created immortal*?

- do you believe Satan is immortal?
- do you believe the wicked are immortal?

- do you believe God can destroy them (as in put an end to their existence) but will never choose to do this?

- do you believe God cannot (does not have the ability to) destroy them (put an end to their existence)?

Why?


*by immortal I mean basically "indestructable"

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 51 by Claire Evans]

I believe souls are eternal.

You forgot to say why.

I don't believe it can't be destroyed like energy can't be destroyed.

I believe souls are not eternal because man is mortal and souls die.

Scripture says only God has immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16.

Jesus was mortal yet He rose from the dead and is now immortal. That's the whole point of promising us eternal life.

Precisely.

1 Corinthians 15:45

23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

No one else.

Not unbelievers, not Satan, not the beast, not the false prophet.

I believe death of the body that won't be resurrection doesn't mean the end of consciousness. Eternal life in religious contexts means to be with Jesus.

1 Timothy 6:16 doesn't gel with Revelation because it says Satan will be tormented for ever and ever.

No, Revelation doesn't get with Timothy, and must do so.

Think about it.

The Timothy passage is a plain statement of what literally is. It requires no interpretation.

Not so the Revelation passage.

Revelation is a book full of metaphors and symbolic language, which are used to portray spiritual realities present and future.

It requires interpretation that harmonises with the teachings found in the many more straightforward scriptures such as the letters.

How can being tormented forever be a metaphor for annihilation? They are opposed. They don't mean the same thing. Remember, Paul had his understanding. He words doesn't mean they are necessarily Christ's words but his interpretation.

Let's look at the definition of immortality:

Immortality, in philosophy and religion, the indefinite continuation of the mental, spiritual, or physical existence of individual human beings. In many philosophical and religious traditions, immortality is specifically conceived as the continued existence of an immaterial soul or mind beyond the physical death of the body.

So we can see that immortality can be separate from the continuation of the body. It can also mean the continuation of the soul. So the body may perish but the soul is immortal.

The devil would not be so desperate at the thought of his punishment if he just went into oblivion.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 69 by Claire Evans]

Can you not think for yourself independently of the Bible, please? It has been manipulated in some parts.

Firstly I not come here to read personal remarks, I try to stick to the debate and argumentation and leave quips about the poster's intellect aside. I expect the same from my fellow posters.

I asked for Biblical support for your claims, you have every right to reply that the bible is unreliable in parts but this is hardly a satisfactory response especially in this particular sub-forum. If, as you have done, you are going to use the bible to try and support your claims it is inconsistent to question the authenticity of the parts of that same book that challenge your personal conclusions.

It was not meant to be a a personal remark, sorry. I'm just asking if you can think independently of the Bible. I'm not saying you are dull for not doing so. I'm asking you if you think it is okay to not just automatically believe what is written in there.

Is there a subforum where people can challenge the accepted meanings of the Bible?

[Claire Evans]

So God created Satan knowing he would cause ultimate suffering in this world yet chose to make him anyway.

Being ABLE to know everything isn't the same as knowing everything any more than being able to cook anything is the same as cooking everything. If you can do something you still have to chose whether you WILL do it or not. Just because God could know what the angel that became Satan would do, doesn't mean he necessarily chose to.

So you are assuming that God chose to be clueless about Satan? I think that is despicable of God if this is true. Should be be clueless about the sin we have done, we'd still have to answer for it but not God? God set up up for failure if what you said is right?

For example, God can destroy everything and everyone any time he chooses, evidently He has not chosen to USE that power at the present time. So clearly God can have the ablility to do something yet be selective as to if, when and to what extent he will use that ability . In a similar way, God CAN know everything about any of His creation, including what choices we will make in the future; more often than not however, he choses to learn about our choices when they make them, in other words he uses his powers SELECTIVELY.


How can God select what He doesn't want to know?

The above can be likened to buying a book. One can decide to real the conclusing chapter first so you know how the characters turn out, you can scan down the chapters and select the particular portions of interest to know what the character does in a particular circumstance, or you can read the book one page at a time in order from the first page to the last in chronological order. God can "read" how any of His creatures turns out but it seems for the most part he has chosen to find out about their choices 'one page at a time'.

So God can destroy Satan now but chooses not to? If He had the ability to just destroy Satan now, why did He think the only option to save mankind was for Jesus to die for our sins?

Do you have any scriptural basis on God being selective of what He chooses to know? The Bible says He is omniscient but this cannot be true if He selectively doesn't know certain things.

QUESTION Is not such a selective use of foreknowledge putting the lives of others needlessly at risk?

No. An all mighty God can never have things run out of control, meaning there will never be a situation that will ultimately result in irreparable damage. Creating free moral agents would always introduce the possibility that they make bad choices, but if they are to enjoy an honest open relationship, those choices must be dealt with in "real time" as they happen.

This world is out of control. God has no control over it. Satan does. He is the prince of this world. Imagine God saying, "Go ahead, Satan. Have your way and let the evil sacrifice babies you."

God only has control over the lives of those who love Him.

• - Would it be considered a fair trial if the judge already knows the accused will be found guilty?
  - How sincere will the witness testimonies be if they know the judge already knows what they will say even before they open their mouths?

God already knows as time on earth doesn't apply to Him. According to Einstein, the past, present and future are happening simultaneously. If Revelation has not happened yet, how could it be set in stone? It has happened in another dimension but we are only perceiving it later. I think the mistake you make is to always apply logic to God. He is a supernatural being.

CONCLUSION God uses all his abilities in perfect balance with his qualities such as love, wisdom and justice. Though He can forsee every detail in everyone's future His omnipotence is in no way negated by his choice to be selective in its use.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Sideshow: Did God know that Adam & Eve would sin?
[/quote]


As for the video, God wants us in that video to choose Him over evil. Notice how this benefits God and not humanity. If I was God, I'd want to save the world suffering at all costs and not introduce sin where we have to choose to give into it or not. The eternal life to come is what God intended in the first place. There is no option to choose between good and evil there and evil there doesn't exist. Do we no longer have free will in the after life?

Putting temptation in the way of Adam and Eve is so wrong. Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer, "Lead us not into temptation..."

[JehovahsWitness]

It was not meant to be a a personal remark, sorry. I'm just asking if you can think independently of the Bible.

Yes I can, that is how I can drive my car to work, pay my taxes and operate the microwave.

I'm not saying you are dull for not doing so. I'm asking you if you think it is okay to not just automatically believe what is written in there.

I believe the bible is the word of God, unless I am given reason to believe a verse is spurious (which given the number of ancient manuscripts now available renders this possibility extremely unlikely) then I do indeed automatically believe what is written in there. And no, I do not believe it is ok not to. God cannot lie and the bible is, I believe God speaking to man.

Is there a subforum where people can challenge the accepted meanings of the Bible?

I gave no indication it is wrong to do this, indeed Jehovahs Witnesses have doing just that for over 100 years. Thus we don't believe in the Trinity, we don't believe in the immortality of the soul, we don't believe in hellfire. ... challenging the accepted meanings of the Bible is our speciality.

But he who challenges accepted meanings must expect to be challenged in return.

[JehovahsWitness]

So you are assuming that God chose to be clueless about Satan? I think that is despicable of God if this is true.

So you are assuming that God chose to be clueless about Satan?

No. I am extremely careful about the words I write, every syllable has been chosen carefully. I did not say God "chose to be clueless about Satan" and I did not use those words because that would imply that God has chosen to be totally ignorant about the actions, motives methods, identity and future of that particular renargade and extremely dangerous individual.

My exact words were ...

God CAN know everything about any of His creation, including what choices we will make in the future; more often than not however, he choses to learn about our choices when they make them, in other words he uses his powers SELECTIVELY.

Sideshow: Did God know that Adam & Eve would sin?

If you will note I said, "more often than not". This implies that there are selected instances when God does indeed choose to forsee the future of an individual, but that such actions are neither systematic or automatic. The very existants of Prophecy testifies to this. Satan would be one of those cases where Jehovah has used his power of foreknowledge. Jehovah, many years millenia in advance announced details of Satan's future including his ultimate demise in the lake of fire as described in the last book of the Bible Revelation.

Should be be clueless about the sin we have done, we'd still have to answer for it but not God? God set up up for failure if what you said is right?

I'm sorry I simply don't understand what you have just said here so I can't address this point.

[JehovahsWitness]

So God can destroy Satan now but chooses not to? If He had the ability to just destroy Satan now, why did He think the only option to save mankind was for Jesus to die for our sins?
Do you have any scriptural basis on God being selective of what He chooses to know? The Bible says He is omniscient but this cannot be true if He selectively doesn't know certain things.

So God can destroy Satan now but chooses not to

• Obviously that is the case, I presume YOU believe the same since you said that Satan isn't omnipotent but God is. If God is all powerful but Satan isn't then Jehovah logically has enough power to destroy Satan but Satan hasn't enough power to prevent it. Unless you believe Satan is already destroyed you too believe this sentence to be true, no?

If He had the ability to just destroy Satan now, why did He think the only option to save mankind was for Jesus to die for our sins?

So you think GOD was not omnipotent back in the garden of Eden? Are you implying with this question that when the angel that became Satan rebelled, God thought "

• Oh my, if only I were strong enough to detroyed this pest, but I *can't* ... I'm just don't have enough power!"

** What part of being omnipotent involves not being strong enough to destroy Satan if that be his good pleasure ?

why did He think the only option to save mankind was for Jesus to die for our sins?

• If you think GOD was omnipotent and Satan isn't why YOU think he chose the option he did? Is it not, like me, because in his Infinite wisdom He decided that the above option would render the best results.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 93 by Claire Evans]


Do you have any scriptural basis on God being selective of what He chooses to know?

I have already provided the bible based reasoning here?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 314#848314

There are also the instances in the bible when Jehovah indicates he did not know what an individual or group would do:

- Abraham & Isaac -see Gen 22:12
- Jonah & Ninevites - Jonah 3:10

As well as the occasions where God said he has regretted how things turned out (Gen 6:6) or has changed his mind in scripture (compare Exodus 32:14; Amos 7:3;Jeremiah 18:10)


Further reading Total or Selective Foreknowledge?
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102009048#h=6

The Bible says He is omniscient but this cannot be true if He selectively doesn't know certain things.

• Actually the word "omniscient" isn't in the bible. Scripture tells us the things Jehovah God knows and is capable of knowing and leaves us to deduce how he uses these powers and/or what self-imposed limits, if any, he applies. We are BOTH deducing from scripture. You say God sets zero limits on his use of this power, I say He puts "some". I propose my conclusion is more in line with what the bible has revealed as to His personality, past and present actions and stated purpose.

[JehovahsWitness]

God already knows as time on earth doesn't apply to Him. According to Einstein, the past, present and future are happening simultaneously. If Revelation has not happened yet, how could it be set in stone? It has happened in another dimension but we are only perceiving it later.

If Revelation has not happened yet, how could it be set in stone?

It can be "set in stone" because God has used his powers of foreknowledge and since Jehovah is Almighty whatever He wants to make happen, He will make happen.

To illustrate: your 9 year old wakes up on the day of a test and says he'said not going to school today. You check his temperature, you see he's not sick and you reply "You ARE going to school today and you will take that test." Is this because you as a parent currently live in a parrelle universe where the test has already happened or because you are the parent, he is the child and you have the power and the responsibility to make it happen?

In a similar way God can speak of future events with absolute certainty because if he decides to do something no one and nothing can stop Him (compare Isaiah 55:11)

[JehovahsWitness]

This world is out of control. God has no control over it. Satan does. He is the prince of this world. Imagine God saying, "Go ahead, Satan. Have your way and let the evil sacrifice babies you." God only has control over the lives of those who love Him.

So what are you suggesting.

A) YHWH is not the Creator of the universe, and all beings both seen and unseen?

B) That there *is* no supreme (ie unique) ruler of the universe but rather two co-eternal "gods" that had equal control until one of them was able to grapple control out of the hands of the other?

C) That Jehovah, despite being able to see that this was going to happen, took or was capable of taking no preventative measures and thus humanity found itself under the Prince of Darkness?

D) All of the above?

F) None of the above. Please explain.

I think the mistake you make is to always apply logic to God.

• I think the mistake you make is not applying enough logic to your reasoning. (See above)

Why hasn't God gotten rid of the Devil ?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 88 by Claire Evans]



[center]
An all powerful god can do pretty much all[/center]

Before I answer that question, do you believe God can be at more than one place at a time and why? Don't recite scriptures, I just want to know how it can be done.

It was one of those hot sunny summer days in '58.

I was THREE years old... ( fantastically young, yes? But this is true. I know by where I lived and who I was lecturing to ) I was PREACHING.. yes, preaching at 3, to my friends in the back shed about how God is everywhere.. and trying to reason it out. My my my.. what a wonderful memory. ( Ok, I was officially 3, but might have been close to 4. It was hot, and my birthday is in the late summer. Come to think about it, I remember cicadas... that's usually an August kind of thing around here... )

I don't remember the actual argument. Too bad.
But I remember being so confident about it.

I don't recall if my friends ( two beautiful red haired twins that I was in love with ) were convinced. All this to say is that IF we believe in an all powerful god.. well... Bob's your uncle.

It's all magic.

Maybe god has to say the word .... and be anywhere, everywhere, neither here nor there... best beware, I still love red hair.

to this day