Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[Justin108]

Yes, that is the point, how many prophecies has God

made

. It's not that He is seeing into the future with His prophecies but that He is actively involved in making sure that they come true.

Did Matthew 2:16-18 fulfill the prophecy made in Jeremiah 31:15?
Did Matthew 26:14-16 and Luke 22:47-48 fulfill the prophecies made in Psalm 41:9 and Zechariah 11:12-13?
Did Mark 14:57-58 fulfill the prophecy made in Psalm 35:11?
Did Matthew 26:67 fulfill the prophecy made in Isaiah 50:6?

Did God "make sure" these prophecies are fulfilled? Was he actively involved in making these prophecies come true?

John 15:24 "If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: They hated me without reason."

If God was actively involved in making sure his prophecies come true, how did he make this one come true? Did he somehow make people hate Jesus?

http://christianity.about.com/od/biblef ... -Jesus.htm
Did God make every one of these prophecies come true, including Judas' betrayal of Jesus, the crucifixion, the Roman soldier piercing Jesus' side?


It seems to me that either God knows the future (including what people will do) or he makes people do things, thereby overriding their free will.

So which is it?

[2timothy316]

Yes, that is the point, how many prophecies has God

made

. It's not that He is seeing into the future with His prophecies but that He is actively involved in making sure that they come true.

Did Matthew 2:16-18 fulfill the prophecy made in Jeremiah 31:15?
Did Matthew 26:14-16 and Luke 22:47-48 fulfill the prophecies made in Psalm 41:9 and Zechariah 11:12-13?
Did Mark 14:57-58 fulfill the prophecy made in Psalm 35:11?
Did Matthew 26:67 fulfill the prophecy made in Isaiah 50:6?

Did God "make sure" these prophecies are fulfilled? Was he actively involved in making these prophecies come true?

Yes. "So my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results..." Isaiah 55:10, 11.

As far as Judas, all that needed to be put into position was a greedy person. Judas was that kind of person, though any number of people could have filled that role. Remember God knows the heart. He knows what we really love. He also knows how much faith we have. He knows us better than we know ourselves. Judas' thoughts apparently were bad all the time. Looking for ways to either steal or con someone out of money. God used the traits of that man to fill a spot to make His prophecy come true. All of mankind is a lump of clay and from that lump, depending on what is in their heart, they are used for an honorable use and those that are used for a dishonorable use. (Romans 9:21) Judas, because of the wicked things his heart desired, was used by God for a dishonorable use. Even if God hadn't chosen the day and manner of His Son's death, Satan would have had mankind kill Jesus anyway. You may ask, 'how are you so sure'. Because even at Jesus' birth, Satan tried to have Jesus killed. There were many more times after that too.

John 15:24 "If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: They hated me without reason."

If God was actively involved in making sure his prophecies come true, how did he make this one come true? Did he somehow make people hate Jesus?

No. Jehovah knew that there was going to be 'enmity' long before Jesus came into the picture. The goals of the 'serpent' Satan and Jehovah God are completely different thus why God knew there was going to be hatred. Jehovah knew what was in Satan heart and knows his plans and also knows what he is doing as he is doing them. (Gen 3:15) Satan influenced those people hate Jesus. Satan is still doing it today and has many followers. Jesus told the Jews opposing him, "You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father." - John 8:44. Jesus blamed who? Jehovah knew long ago there would be people that would use their freewill to follow Satan. He knows the inclinations of men. We are sinful because of Adam and now our thoughts enjoy rebellion slightly more rather than obedience. God doesn't force people to hate His Son. If He did that would make God His own enemy and His Son's enemy! Of course Satan would love it so that people use their freedom of choice to blame Jehovah for all the evils in the world. Nothing would make Satan happier.

http://christianity.about.com/od/biblef ... -Jesus.htm
Did God make every one of these prophecies come true, including Judas' betrayal of Jesus, the crucifixion, the Roman soldier piercing Jesus' side?

It seems to me that either God knows the future (including what people will do) or he makes people do things, thereby overriding their free will.

So which is it?

Neither. God knows all choices and their outcomes but doesn't make a person do them. He knows hearts but doesn't make them wicked. Again, God doesn't force people to hate His will. If He did that would make God His own enemy! What you see in those prophecies are like 'GPS' points on a map. These are just proof for us that God made a plan, He stuck by it, He can make anything come true and that includes all the good He has in store for mankind. Yet people today don't believe this... even with all of these points, folks still don't believe it.

[Justin108]

As far as Judas, all that needed to be put into position was a greedy person.

Well how did God know that this greedy person would stay greedy up until the end? What if Judas was inspired by Jesus and changed his mind the way Nineveh changed? I mean Jesus was a pretty inspirational guy. It's quite likely that even if Jesus made an effort to look for even the greediest guy on earth, there's a chance he would change his ways and thereby cause the prophecy to fail.

So we have 3 options here
a) God knew for a fact that Judas would betray Jesus because God knows the future
b) God made Judas betray Jesus, thereby taking away Judas' free will
c) God took a chance with Judas, allowing for the possibility that Judas might change his mind and thereby causing the prophecy to fail

Which one is it?

[2timothy316]

As far as Judas, all that needed to be put into position was a greedy person.

Well how did God know that this greedy person would stay greedy up until the end? What if Judas was inspired by Jesus and changed his mind the way Nineveh changed? I mean Jesus was a pretty inspirational guy. It's quite likely that even if Jesus made an effort to look for even the greediest guy on earth, there's a chance he would change his ways and thereby cause the prophecy to fail.

So we have 3 options here
a) God knew for a fact that Judas would betray Jesus because God knows the future
b) God made Judas betray Jesus, thereby taking away Judas' free will
c) God took a chance with Judas, allowing for the possibility that Judas might change his mind and thereby causing the prophecy to fail

Which one is it?

None of those. But C is the closest.

If Judas changed his mind then another would have been there to take Judas' place. When Hamon was seeking a plot to kill all the Jews in Esther's day, Esther seems might have been sacred to do what her uncle Mordecai was telling her to do. This is what he said to Esther, Do not imagine that because you are in the kings household you are any more likely to escape than all the other Jews. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will come to the Jews from another source." Esther 4:12-14.

How does Jehovah do all this? I have no idea. The information that He must have to have things happen just as He wants, must be just something we can't even begin to fathom.

There is another prophecy in Ps 118:26 "Blessed is the one who comes in the name of Jehovah; We bless you from the house of Jehovah." That was fulfilled in Luke 19:38-40, "Blessed is the one coming as the King in Jehovahs name! Peace in heaven, and glory in the heights above! However, some of the Pharisees from the crowd said to him: Teacher, rebuke your disciples. But in reply he said: I tell you, if these remained silent, the stones would cry out.

Did you see what Jesus said would happen if no one was there to shout 'Blessed the one coming as the King in Jehovah's name'. The very stones would cry it out. There is always a backup plan.

[shnarkle]

It seems to me that either God knows the future (including what people will do) or he makes people do things, thereby overriding their free will.

So which is it?

There could be another alternative. He knows what people will do because he is omniscient, and according to His own free will chooses who he will reveal himself to. Obviously if he doesn't reveal himself to someone they aren't going to choose to follow God. However, given that he is omniscient, he already knows that some will reject him, so why bother revealing oneself to those who won't accept him anyways? Those he reveals himself to, are then going to have a choice, or perhaps it is a no-brainer at that point; like having someone toss you a life preserver as you're about to drown.

[2timothy316]

It seems to me that either God knows the future (including what people will do) or he makes people do things, thereby overriding their free will.

So which is it?

There could be another alternative. He knows what people will do because he is omniscient, and according to His own free will chooses who he will reveal himself to. Obviously if he doesn't reveal himself to someone they aren't going to choose to follow God. However, given that he is omniscient, he already knows that some will reject him, so why bother revealing oneself to those who won't accept him anyways? Those he reveals himself to, are then going to have a choice, or perhaps it is a no-brainer at that point; like having someone toss you a life preserver as you're about to drown.

I like the life preserver analogy. Let pretend that the Bible is that life preserver. That means that the life preserver is available to even those that don't want to choose God. Even where the Bible is banned, people still go through great risk to get parts of the Bible to those people.

Yet sadly, there are those that don't choose God, don't 'grab the life preserver'. They look at it, read on it were it says, 'life preserver' but never use it. He even has commanded people that are using the 'life preserver' to go and tell others to please use the 'life preserver'. Yet people still do all sorts of things. Throw it back, burn it, swim all around it and even use it not to float but as a weapon to hit others with it. Craziness!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 53 by Justin108]




People often confused foreknowledge with causation.

FOREKNOWLEDGE IS NOT CAUSATION

That God knows certain things are going to happen doesn't mean He makes them happen.

Foreknowledge is not synonymous with causation. Most people are 100% certain that they are going to die one day. Is that knowledge causing them to die? If a person saw the fedex man walking up to the door with a package and knew with *100%* certainty that when he rings the doorbell their dogs will start barking. Who caused the dogs to bark, the owner or the Fedex man?







JW


RELATED POSTS

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Is foreknowledge the same as causation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 50#p850450

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

OMNISCIENCE , OMNIPOTENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 57 by JehovahsWitness]






[center]
The words aren't the same, but that doesn't stop god from getting what he wants[/center]

People often confused foreknowledge with causation.

FOREKNOWLEDGE IS NOT CAUSATION

I agree.
Those two words are not the same at all.

But if you are talking about a god who is all knowing, has a plan and all powerful to make sure that it happens, then his foreknowledge helps him to make it happen if he has a mind to.


Nothing at all can interfere with that kind of god's plan.

So.. if he knows what's going to happen and doesn't like it.. he can just go ahead and change it so that he does.

Apparently, the god can do pretty much anything he wants.

That God knows certain things are going to happen doesn't mean He makes them happen.

Sorry, that's just wrong.
That's PRECISELY what it means.

If he doesn't like something in the future that's going to happen.. he can change it by magic.

But if his plan is perfect from the get go.. he never HAS to change it, either.
He just gets what he wants.

Foreknowledge is not synonymous with causation.

Yeah the words aren't the same.
But that's not the problem.

A god who knows the future and who has unlimited power to change it can just go ahead and change it if he so chooses.

It's up to his will...

IF a perfect god makes a perfect plan, there is no NEED to change anything. It's all planned.. it's all perfect. Nothing is happening that isn't planned and perfect.


According to the story, my correction of you was planed and is perfect.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 53 by Justin108]




People often confused foreknowledge with causation.

FOREKNOWLEDGE IS NOT CAUSATION

That God knows certain things are going to happen doesn't mean He makes them happen.

Foreknowledge is not synonymous with causation. Most people are 100% certain that they are going to die one day. Is that knowledge causing them to die? If a person saw the fedex man walking up to the door with a package and knew with *100%* certainty that when he rings the doorbell their dogs will start barking. Who caused the dogs to bark, the owner or the Fedex man?

This is an excellent point, and well explained. However, we still have this issue of God's promises. God has some promises that he is going to keep. He insures that his promises are kept. Even in this case, I don't think that our free will is an issue. Paul says that our free will isn't what determines our salvation, e.g. "will or effort" (Rom. 9)

So what this seems to be saying is that we have free will, but it doesn't matter. This really isn't the deciding factor.

[shnarkle]

It seems to me that either God knows the future (including what people will do) or he makes people do things, thereby overriding their free will.

So which is it?

There could be another alternative. He knows what people will do because he is omniscient, and according to His own free will chooses who he will reveal himself to. Obviously if he doesn't reveal himself to someone they aren't going to choose to follow God. However, given that he is omniscient, he already knows that some will reject him, so why bother revealing oneself to those who won't accept him anyways? Those he reveals himself to, are then going to have a choice, or perhaps it is a no-brainer at that point; like having someone toss you a life preserver as you're about to drown.

I like the life preserver analogy. Let pretend that the Bible is that life preserver. That means that the life preserver is available to even those that don't want to choose God. Even where the Bible is banned, people still go through great risk to get parts of the Bible to those people.

Yet sadly, there are those that don't choose God, don't 'grab the life preserver'. They look at it, read on it were it says, 'life preserver' but never use it. He even has commanded people that are using the 'life preserver' to go and tell others to please use the 'life preserver'. Yet people still do all sorts of things. Throw it back, burn it, swim all around it and even use it not to float but as a weapon to hit others with it. Craziness!

Their free will decision isn't what determines whether they will get it or not. God decides. Notice that I'm not denying that they have free will.