Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[JehovahsWitness]

This is an excellent point, and well explained. However, we still have this issue of God's promises. God has some promises that he is going to keep. He insures that his promises are kept. Even in this case, I don't think that our free will is an issue. Paul says that our free will isn't what determines our salvation, e.g. "will or effort" (Rom. 9)

So what this seems to be saying is that we have free will, but it doesn't matter. This really isn't the deciding factor.

GODS PROMISES

In my opinion God promises with absolute assurance because He is almighty and knows that no matter what future situation arises, nothing and no one can stop him from fulfilling His purpose.

I don't see how God revealing his intentions impedes on our own free will, we can either choose to benefit from what He intends to do or not, that's our choice.


JW

[hoghead1]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

Alright, date set, then. However, God doesn't always get things to happen the way God wants them to. That's why we read in the Bible about God's anger and disappointment in things. God lures, God does not coerce. All creatures have choices. God's aim for specific occasions is always felt by creatures, never negligible, and actualized to some degree, but often not nearly as fully as God would like, or in a very twisted-around way.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 61 by JehovahsWitness]

Nothing can stop God from being creative and cont9inually providing aims the maximize such beauty as is possible under the circumstances. However, we have choices, freedom, as to how far and in what way we will carry out God's aim. Evil occurs because we often actualize but a little of the aim or get it twisted around.

Also God's promises are generally conditional, in teh Bible. Israel would be a light to the nations, provided, and this is important, it followed God. It didn't, so down it went.

[William]

[Replying to post 63 by hoghead1]

In relation to Israel and GOD changing Gods mind about things, I see in Israel today, many good things which I would recognize as of GOD/to GODs credit/helpful and focused in working on making human life more bearable and enjoyable.

Sure, there are questionable actions as well, oft from the political branch of that society and no doubt influenced by the political branch of the organised religions therein...for example they can be very heavy-handed when retaliating to hate-crimes done against them...but that is just an aspect of Israel, not all that Israel is about and I think GOD blesses Israel today...so 'up she goes' as her good actions propel.

I speak of a people who have been through the mill and are better for it. I recognize that they need to be more empathetic in relation to their neighbor and see something of themselves (in the past), in their neighbors present condition.

I think in general they do, but would like to see a more proactive response to that problem than being heavy-handed. Something more positive.

I understand that it is complicated. Perhaps I speak from the La-la-land of wishful thinking, but *shrugs* - I like to dream big...

[hoghead1]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

If we have free will, can make choices, then no, God can't make just anything come true. God can't decide for us. We have the freedom to chose otherwise than what God may want, and therefore God can't guarantee any "plan" will be carried out. Did God "plan" for creation to greatly disappoint him (Gen. 6:6)? No, I certainly don't think so. But it happened. God is the great risk taker.

I think that God always sticks with God's ultimate goal, which is to maximize such beauty as is possible under the circumstances. However, I don't think that God sat down before all creation and worked out a detailed plan as to what all is going to happen. Only an obsessive-compulsive worry-wort would try and plan it all out ahead of time. Plus, God knows that God cannot 100 percent guarantee anything. Did God plan for Beethoven to write all his music, before all creation? No. That would have been too "iffy."

We forget that it takes great talent to improvise, think on your feet, and that is precisely what God does, plays by ear.

Consequently, if you look carefully at the Bible, you will find unfulfilled prophecies. Ezekiel 26 says Nebuchadnezzer would take Tyre. But he didn't, Alexander did. Jer. 34:2-5 says that Zedekiah would die peacefully, but 52:9-11 says he died in prison. Not a peaceful way to die. Jer. 36:30 says that Jehoiakin would have no king after him. But 2 Chron. 36:8-9 says that his son, Jehoiachin, came to the throne after him. And there are others.

Biblical prophecies are stating merely possibilities of what might happen, not something set in cement.

[shnarkle]

This is an excellent point, and well explained. However, we still have this issue of God's promises. God has some promises that he is going to keep. He insures that his promises are kept. Even in this case, I don't think that our free will is an issue. Paul says that our free will isn't what determines our salvation, e.g. "will or effort" (Rom. 9)

So what this seems to be saying is that we have free will, but it doesn't matter. This really isn't the deciding factor.

GODS PROMISES

In my opinion God promises with absolute assurance because He is almighty and knows that no matter what future situation arises, nothing and no one can stop him from fulfilling His purpose.

I don't see how God revealing his intentions impedes on our own free will, we can either choose to benefit from what He intends to do or not, that's our choice.


JW

I agree. God also knows what that free will decision will be. He also knows that regardless of what we decide of our own free will, it will make no difference in the end because "all things work together for the good of those who..etc."

In other words, the dice of God are always loaded. The really incredibly thing about this is that God tells us not only that His dice are loaded before handing them to us to throw, but He also informs us that we don't have to throw the dice; we can just do what He tells us to do as this is the best course of action in the first place. If we choose to roll the dice, we're going to lose no matter what. He just makes sure that no matter what bad decisions we make, we're going to just have to learn our lesson the hard way, that's all.

Most people, including most Christians spend their entire lives throwing God's loaded dice. Very few ever just go along with God's plan.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

Alright, date set, then. However, God doesn't always get things to happen the way God wants them to. That's why we read in the Bible about God's anger and disappointment in things.

Agreed as well. Why be sad or angry if you're the one in direct control of a person's actions and thoughts? What makes God sad is that He has to turn hateful curses into things that work in His purpose. Certainly He would have rather all the Earth looked to His Son as the rightful king of the Earth. But what happened? They killed him. He knew the chances were extremely high they'd kill him. After all their was an attempt to kill him at birth. But, he offered His Son anyway knowing he would die. SO, he made it to where His Son's death would benefit all of mankind...yet so few care... which makes me so sad. Lest we forget, Jesus was a volunteer.

God lures, God does not coerce. All creatures have choices. God's aim for specific occasions is always felt by creatures, never negligible, and actualized to some degree, but often not nearly as fully as God would like, or in a very twisted-around way.

I think the lesson is, don't be a person for a dishonorable use. Be a person for an honorable one. (Romans 9:20-21) Don't let our greed, lusts, etc etc blind us, so that when we look back at our actions, we are not like Judas. "Then Judas, his betrayer, seeing that Jesus had been condemned, felt remorse and brought the 30 pieces of silver back to the chief priests and elders, saying: I sinned when I betrayed innocent blood. They said: What is that to us? You must see to it! So he threw the silver pieces into the temple and departed. Then he went off and hanged himself." Mat 27:3-5

[Justin108]

If Judas changed his mind then another would have been there to take Judas' place

So if Judas at the last moment decided to not betray Jesus, God would have gone looking for another greedy guy to take his place as the apostle that would betray Jesus...?

Another problem is the 30 pieces of silver. This is a pretty precise number. If Judas decided to betray Jesus for 40 pieces, the prophecy would have failed.

Zechariah 11:12 Then I said to them, If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them. And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.

Matthew 26:14 Then one of the Twelve"the one called Judas Iscariot"went to the chief priests 15 and asked, What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you? So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver.

So how did God know the Romans would pay a bounty of exactly 30 pieces of silver?
a) He saw the future
b) He somehow made the Romans pay 30 pieces of silver, thereby taking away their free will

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 53 by Justin108]




People often confused foreknowledge with causation.

FOREKNOWLEDGE IS NOT CAUSATION

That God knows certain things are going to happen doesn't mean He makes them happen.

Foreknowledge is not synonymous with causation. Most people are 100% certain that they are going to die one day. Is that knowledge causing them to die? If a person saw the fedex man walking up to the door with a package and knew with *100%* certainty that when he rings the doorbell their dogs will start barking. Who caused the dogs to bark, the owner or the Fedex man?

I never said foreknowledge is causation so I don't see the point of your reply

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 53 by Justin108]




People often confused foreknowledge with causation.

FOREKNOWLEDGE IS NOT CAUSATION

That God knows certain things are going to happen doesn't mean He makes them happen.

Foreknowledge is not synonymous with causation. Most people are 100% certain that they are going to die one day. Is that knowledge causing them to die? If a person saw the fedex man walking up to the door with a package and knew with *100%* certainty that when he rings the doorbell their dogs will start barking. Who caused the dogs to bark, the owner or the Fedex man?

I never said foreknowledge is causation so I don't see the point of your reply

I never said you did, in fact I don't think I mentioned you at all. I introduced the point because I thought it relevant.