Does God change his mind?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:52 pm

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)

So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:58 am

Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: I don't know how God did many things. For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, is the utterance of Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8, 9)

I have to accept that.
Why deny the possibility that God simply sees the future?

Again, because that would mean that people's choices are set. I do not accept this as the Bible says we choose for ourselves. "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve." Joshua 24:15. If our choices are already known then the plea for people to choose who they are going to serve is not really possible as it has already been made.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:02 am

2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: I don't know how God did many things. For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, is the utterance of Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8, 9)

I have to accept that.
Why deny the possibility that God simply sees the future?
Again, because that would mean that people's choices are set. I do not accept this as the Bible says we choose for ourselves. "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve." Joshua 24:15. If our choices are already known then the plea for people to choose who they are going to serve is not really possible as it has already been made.

Care to address the rest of my post? You'll find a rebuttal to this point there, along with a few other points I'd like you to address

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:02 am

Justin108 wrote:
This is your reasoning, not the Bible's. But as you just pointed out...

For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, is the utterance of Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8, 9)

Two way street, just as God looks into the future and knows people's choices is yours. It's just yours contradicts many other Bible scriptures.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:03 am

Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: I don't know how God did many things. For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, is the utterance of Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8, 9)

I have to accept that.
Why deny the possibility that God simply sees the future?
Again, because that would mean that people's choices are set. I do not accept this as the Bible says we choose for ourselves. "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve." Joshua 24:15. If our choices are already known then the plea for people to choose who they are going to serve is not really possible as it has already been made.
Care to address the rest of my post? You'll find a rebuttal to this point there, along with a few other points I'd like you to address

Are you not reading my post? There might not be an answer in the Bible for you.

Blastcat · Post by **Blastcat** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:13 am

[Replying to post 151 by 2timothy316]

[center]Even IF something makes perfect sense to us, we can be WRONG about it.[/center]

Why deny the possibility that God simply sees the future?

2timothy316 wrote:
Again, because that would mean that people's choices are set. I do not accept this as the Bible says we choose for ourselves. "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve." Joshua 24:15. If our choices are already known then the plea for people to choose who they are going to serve is not really possible as it has already been made.

I can and have made a case that our feeling of free will is most probably an illusion.
That would account for the Joshua passage.

People FEEL that free will is real, that's for sure. So do I.
People used to FEEL that the earth didn't rotate.

I still don't feel the earth rotate. In fact, it seems to stay perfectly still to me.
It sure looks to me that the SUN rotates around the planet. Not the other way. The earth stays still.. from the earth, looking up, the SUN really seems to move up and down and all around.

At night, it really looks that the stars and the moon go around the earth.
Just look up.

[center]We can be wrong about what we feel and think.[/center]

Even when we are super duper convinced that something is true... we can be wrong. Reality trumps our feelings and our thoughts. It doesn't MATTER if we think something makes perfect sense.. we can STILL be wrong.

Each and every time.
Science teaches us that.

Reality is VERY surprising.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:25 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
This is your reasoning, not the Bible's. But as you just pointed out...

For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, is the utterance of Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8, 9)
Two way street, just as God looks into the future and knows people's choices is yours. It's just yours contradicts many other Bible scriptures.

Which scriptures?

2timothy316 wrote:It's just yours contradicts many other Bible scriptures.

And yours contradicts logic. You're suggesting that God can somehow know the future (30 pieces of silver) without actually knowing the future. You're suggesting that God can make people do something (pay 30 pieces of silver) without making people do something. Can God also make a triangle with 4 sides? Can God make a rock too heavy for him to lift?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:38 pm

Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
This is your reasoning, not the Bible's. But as you just pointed out...

For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, is the utterance of Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8, 9)
Two way street, just as God looks into the future and knows people's choices is yours. It's just yours contradicts many other Bible scriptures.
Which scriptures?

2timothy316 wrote:

Do you agree with the following scripture?

"When under trial, let no one say: I am being tried by God. For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone." But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire." James 1:13, 14

I fail to see how this verse suggests that God cannot see the future?

I'm sorry for your failure but I can't make it more clear. I told you, "Because I don't see anywhere that it says our desires are pre-made or even predicted. But we are drawn out and enticed by our own desires. This is one of the scriptures that doesn't allow me to believe you."

The Bible isn't lying. We make our own choices bases on our desires they are not pre-made. Otherwise this scripture would say, 'each one's desire was pre-made for them'. Yet it says by 'his own desire'. Not someone else's, not God's and not some pre-made script. God can't look into the future unless the future was predetermined and it's not. According to James, human choices are not predetermined, they spring from our own desires.

I will not tell you again.
viewtopic.php?p=850874#850874

2timothy316 wrote:It's just yours contradicts many other Bible scriptures.
And yours contradicts logic.

Many things contradicts human logic in the Bible.

"So the sun stood still and the moon did not move until the nation could take vengeance on its enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? The sun stood still in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to set for about a whole day." Joshua 10:13.

I highly doubt you agree with the above scripture as true. So I'm not concerned with something contradicting your logic. I can point to many things in the Bible that would contradict your logic.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:48 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
This is your reasoning, not the Bible's. But as you just pointed out...

For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways, is the utterance of Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8, 9)
Two way street, just as God looks into the future and knows people's choices is yours. It's just yours contradicts many other Bible scriptures.
Which scriptures?

2timothy316 wrote:

Do you agree with the following scripture?

"When under trial, let no one say: I am being tried by God. For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone." But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire." James 1:13, 14

I fail to see how this verse suggests that God cannot see the future?
I'm sorry for your failure but I can't make it more clear. I told you, "Because I don't see anywhere that it says our desires are pre-made or even predicted. But we are drawn out and enticed by our own desires. This is one of the scriptures that doesn't allow me to believe you."

Scripture does not "contradict" a God that can see into the future. It's your own reasoning about scripture that contradicts God. The matter of whether seeing the future makes the future pre-made is a whole other philosophical debate. The fact of the matter is scripture as is does not contradict a future-seeing God. Unless scripture says something along the lines of "God cannot see the future", you cannot call this a contradiction. There are plenty of far more direct example of contradictions in the Bible. This isn't one of them

2timothy316 wrote: The Bible isn't lying.

How would you know?

2timothy316 wrote: We make our own choices bases on our desires they are not pre-made.

Did the priests who offered 30 pieces of silver make their own choices? If so, how did God know 500 years ago which choices they would make?

2timothy316 wrote:
And yours contradicts logic.
Many things contradicts human logic in the Bible.

Oh so now it's "human logic" all of a sudden? Please tell me how you came to the conclusion that seeing the future means the future is "pre-made" if not through your own human logic? This is absolutely astounding. When I make a logical conclusion then it's "just human logic" but when you do then it's perfectly sound? Care to explain this double standard?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:58 pm

Justin108 wrote:
Oh so now it's "human logic" all of a sudden?

All of the sudden?

Let me remind you of the thread.

Me:
It's just yours [viewpoint] contradicts many other Bible scriptures.
You:
And yours contradicts logic.

Because you're human and you're speaking of logic, I figured you must be speaking human logic and done with what the Bible says. What other 'logic' were you speaking of?

You keep asking for Bible scripture and then you don't call them logical. Well, that's your POV and you're welcome to it. I don't have to convince you the Bible is true in this forum.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:02 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
Oh so now it's "human logic" all of a sudden?
All of the sudden?

Let me remind you of the thread.

Me:
It's just yours [viewpoint] contradicts many other Bible scriptures.
You:
And yours contradicts logic.
Because you're human and you're speaking of logic, I figured you must be speaking human logic. What other 'logic' were you speaking of?

You keep asking for Bible scripture and then you don't call them logical. Well, that's your POV and you're welcome to it. I don't have to convince you the Bible is true in this forum.

Ok so human logic is out. Human logic is flawed. Now without using human logic, please explain to me how you know God cannot see the future?