Does God change his mind?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:52 pm

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)

So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:55 am

2timothy316 wrote: I will state again that you are correct in your post about Jehovah not having any part of evil plots. That is scripturally correct. However, that doesn't mean that Jehovah and even Jesus didn't plan where Jesus was to be and what to do when Satan put his evil plan into motion to make sure all the prophesies came true. Turning Satan's plan into a curse for Satan and a relief for all mankind..

I totally agree; for example Jesus knew that his life was to end in Jersualem and deliberately travelled to the festival knowing exactly what awaited him. He knew when Judas began to let Satan into his heart and as you pointed out, even on that last night told him (Judas) "Do what you have to do" (paraphrasing). Jesus knew prophecy, he knew his part in it and confronted each situation head on. Agreed.

2timothy316 wrote:
I still think that uses 'honorable vessels' for an honorable use in making His prophecies come true. [...]

No problem with that, I totally agree.

Jehovah can and does manipulate events, he plays an active role in the fulfillment of prophecy, my only point is that he doesn't do evil, he doesn't inspire evil men to perform evil acts; anything he manipulate, manages and arranges is good whoever and whatever he may use (thus he can use Pagans to free his people, the UN to destroy Babylon, Astrologers to fund Joseph & Mary's trip to Egypt, ect... )

JW

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:06 am

2timothy316 wrote:
However, what I can't accept is that Jehovah sees something into the future as it is. Like fast forwarding on a DVD. Jehovah is not in control or the people on the DVD. This makes the DVD in control.

As for the point of how Jehovah selectively sees future events, whether it can be likened to selection on a DVD, I think such a thing is beyond our understanding. How does he look into the future, select what he wants to know or not know ...? I have no idea. Comparing it to a DVD is just one way of trying to illustrate the selectivity of his options... in the end all we know is

a) He is selective of his use of his power of foreknowledge
b) He always honours his principles, including that of repecting individual free will
c) He has found a way to do this and lovingly provide prophecy for the edification of the faithful

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not my ways, declares Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:11 am

2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Alternatively, God knew the future. But you're so hellbent on your own bias...
Hold it right there. This is not my own bias. The scriptures do not support that Jehovah makes anyone do anything evil.
Why do you make it seem like overriding our free will is my main argument? It isn't. My main argument is that God sees the future. Does scripture disallow the possibility that God knows the future?
Because you're suggesting the God sees the future like He is watching a DVD. That would mean Judas was fated. Not by God but by something else. That the future is rigged and our choices known. That we are not in control of our choices. It's like saying God knows knew it was going to be Judas before he was even born.

I'm not seeing any scripture here. I didn't ask if your own personal reasoning disallowed God knowing the future, I asked if scripture disallowed the possibility that God knows the future?

2timothy316 wrote: I can't accept this as that would mean no one really has freewill but we did the will of what the future has already written.

You're doing exactly what ttruscott is doing. You dislike something about the Bible and so you selectively interpret it to fit your preferred narrative.

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:32 am

No God doesn't change his mind:

But when he encounters superior wisdom, such as Moses, he has it changed FOR him.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:55 am

Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Alternatively, God knew the future. But you're so hellbent on your own bias...
Hold it right there. This is not my own bias. The scriptures do not support that Jehovah makes anyone do anything evil.
Why do you make it seem like overriding our free will is my main argument? It isn't. My main argument is that God sees the future. Does scripture disallow the possibility that God knows the future?
Because you're suggesting the God sees the future like He is watching a DVD. That would mean Judas was fated. Not by God but by something else. That the future is rigged and our choices known. That we are not in control of our choices. It's like saying God knows knew it was going to be Judas before he was even born.
I'm not seeing any scripture here. I didn't ask if your own personal reasoning disallowed God knowing the future, I asked if scripture disallowed the possibility that God knows the future?

2timothy316 wrote: I can't accept this as that would mean no one really has freewill but we did the will of what the future has already written.
You're doing exactly what ttruscott is doing. You dislike something about the Bible and so you selectively interpret it to fit your preferred narrative.

Actually everything you said here is what I see you are doing.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:23 am

JehovahsWitness wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
However, what I can't accept is that Jehovah sees something into the future as it is. Like fast forwarding on a DVD. Jehovah is not in control or the people on the DVD. This makes the DVD in control.
As for the point of how Jehovah selectively sees future events, whether it can be likened to selection on a DVD, I think such a thing is beyond our understanding. How does he look into the future, select what he wants to know or not know ...? I have no idea. Comparing it to a DVD is just one way of trying to illustrate the selectivity of his options... in the end all we know is

a) He is selective of his use of his power of foreknowledge
b) He always honours his principles, including that of repecting individual free will
c) He has found a way to do this and lovingly provide prophecy for the edification of the faithful

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not my ways, declares Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.

Most certainly His thoughts are far greater than ours. The information available to Him is far more than we can even fathom. I can accept anything scripturally sound. The things that some are trying to say, such as God knows choices before they happen, I just can't accept. To know a choice before that person is even faced with that choice is fate. Ideas like God knew Judas' choices before he was born isn't scriptural. I can even accept an 'I don't know' for how God is able to tell what is going to happen before it does. That is what I find myself saying more often than no. What I can't accept is anything that suggests that any individual person's life or even one choice 100% predictable or pre-written by anyone or anything, that is not freedom of choice. There must be actions-reactions taking place that we don't even know about. Influence happening in real time based on the people or beings in play at those moments in time and a person's choices not scripted beforehand. Jehovah's foreknowledge of Satan's plans but not the people no even born yet. Willing participants and not pre-programed people on both Satan's side and Jehovah's. It's the only way the Bible is not contradicted. And yes that means when one participant is unwilling that a new willing participant must be found to complete a prophecy. So that prophecy is not known like looking at a DVD but like making a movie, information is gathered, plot planned, people are cast and then filmed. The amazing part that people turn to Jehovah and say 'He knew' is that God can get what He wants in one take. Many think in their human minds, 'it can't be done without God making the choices for the people.' To that I say the same thing that Jesus said, 'With God, all things are possible'.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:59 am

2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Alternatively, God knew the future. But you're so hellbent on your own bias...
Hold it right there. This is not my own bias. The scriptures do not support that Jehovah makes anyone do anything evil.
Why do you make it seem like overriding our free will is my main argument? It isn't. My main argument is that God sees the future. Does scripture disallow the possibility that God knows the future?
Because you're suggesting the God sees the future like He is watching a DVD. That would mean Judas was fated. Not by God but by something else. That the future is rigged and our choices known. That we are not in control of our choices. It's like saying God knows knew it was going to be Judas before he was even born.
I'm not seeing any scripture here. I didn't ask if your own personal reasoning disallowed God knowing the future, I asked if scripture disallowed the possibility that God knows the future?

2timothy316 wrote: I can't accept this as that would mean no one really has freewill but we did the will of what the future has already written.
You're doing exactly what ttruscott is doing. You dislike something about the Bible and so you selectively interpret it to fit your preferred narrative.
Actually everything you said here is what I see you are doing.

I don't have a preferred narrative. I'm an atheist so frankly I don't really care what the Bible says.

I'll repeat my earlier question for the third time: Does scripture disallow the possibility that God knows the future?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:59 am

Justin108 wrote:
You're doing exactly what ttruscott is doing. You dislike something about the Bible and so you selectively interpret it to fit your preferred narrative.

Do you agree with the following scripture?

"When under trial, let no one say: I am being tried by God. For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone." But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire." James 1:13, 14

Because I don't see anywhere that it says our desires are pre-made or even predicted. But we are drawn out and enticed by our own desires. This is one of the scriptures that doesn't allow me to believe you.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:02 am

Justin108 wrote:
I don't have a preferred narrative. I'm an atheist so frankly I don't really care what the Bible says.

This statement is an oxymoron.

You're saying you don't have a preferred narrative while at the same time acknowledging not caring what the Bible says. So clearly you do have a preferred narrative if you don't care what something tells you and your agenda is that of an atheist. So of course you're going to prefer the narrative that makes God responsible for all the evil in the world.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:07 am

2timothy316 wrote:I can accept anything scripturally sound. The things that some are trying to say, such as God knows choices before they happen, I just can't accept.

Why should you, the calvanist dogma has no firm foundation in scripture. It renders Jehovah partially if not entirely responsible for individual's bad choices and paints God as both unloving and hypocritical.

You are right to reject such notions.

JW