Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 168 by 2timothy316]

So starting over: can God see into the future? Yes or no?

Yes. Yet He doesn't see our individual choices before we are given a choice.

Who says we have any choices?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to William]

Yes, true, God has enough data to suggest what we are most likely to do. However, we sometimes do the unlikely.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 144 by 2timothy316]

I don't think God "allows" bad things or tragedies to happen. That would imply God is equally culpable by just sitting back, doing nothing.

I don't see how God can get it all to turn out God's own way. We are not puppets preprogrammed by God. The Bible makes it very clear that God is often disappointed in creation, that we have freedom to choose otherwise than what God desires.

I certainly do not think that God ignores our decisions and actions. Such a God would not be relevant to the world, such a God would be making decisions way out of context, ones based on total indifference to ourselves and our world.

God knows the future for what it is in its own nature, the realm of possibilities, not decided matters of fact. So, yes, God does have to guess, take risks. God cannot decide for us, we have to decide for ourselves; and until we do so, the future is open-ended, indeterminate, both for ourselves and also God.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 164 by 2timothy316]

Sorry, but your post makes little sense to me. Our future is essentially based on our our choices, is a result of our choices, the actualization of our choices. If God does not know ahead of time what we will choose, and given free will, he can't, then God knows only possibilities, not definite matters of fact. So yes, God is guessing, taking risks that may or may not pay off; and, according to the Bible, sometimes didn't.

Also, we are human beings and have to think in human terms. Your vies, then, on God and the future is also simply an invention of your "logic." If human logic does not apply to God, then neither do your ideas.

Also, the Bible does not day that God knows the future. In the case of Sodom, God's knowledge is "iffy': "If I find such-and-such." In Jer. 18, God gives warnings, then waits to see what happens, before deciding whether tor not to lower the boom. This waiting period would not have been necessary if God knew the future ahead of time.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 136 by 2timothy316]

The fact that God's way are higher than ours does not mean we should collapse God into irrational thinking. On one hand, you say God doesn't know future choices. Then you say God knew Judas would betray Christ. That's flatly contradictory. If God does not know our actions ahead of time, then God certainly can't know what Judas or anyone else is going to do.

Saying it's all like movie making makes little sense here. A movie has a definite script to it, it's all decided ahead of time. But God works with real people in the real world, where there is freedom of choice, where the future is unscripted and open-ended until we decide.

Also, as I have said, the Bible does not say God knows all future events ahead of time. The "High God" who knows all the future came largely from Hellenic philosophy, not Scripture. Matter of fact, in teh Bible, God doesn't always know what is happening. Hence, in the case of Sodom, he had to come down and see what was going on. In Isaiah, God is enthroned way above, so that we look like grasshoppers, which means God really doesn't see clearly what's happening down here, and so has to come down to see. When God asked Adam where he is, I think the biblical writers honestly meant that God didn't know.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 151 by 2timothy316]

Yes, true. And that means God doesn't know the future as set in cement, as well as having no guarantee things will work out as God wants.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 157 by 2timothy316]

Yes, many things in the Bible do contradict human logic; and that's because you are dealing with a work that, divinely inspired or no, is still the product of a pre-scientific, semi-barbaric culture.

Also, your arguments on Scripture are based on your human logic, your human thinking. Now, if human thinking can't grasp God or understand God, then the same goes for your views on the matter, which would totally invalidate your position.

[Justin108]

Taken to its logical conclusion, the idea that God foreknows all decisions would mean that he is responsible for all that happens"including wars, injustices, and suffering.

But you said human logic is flawed, so you can't use this argument

[William]

[Replying to post 177 by hoghead1]

The best one can do is gather the data and examine it - the data itself flows and thus we cannot be static in relation to the data.

GOD in its fullness and wholeness is beyond our ability to fully understand. The best we have to go on is the data and getting some insight into possibilities.

There are options... - always options...

[onewithhim]

I don't know. The Bible doesn't give a step by step explanation on how God made this come about. Yet I have no reason to jump to the conclusion that someone lost their freewill to make it happen. I'm not doing the 'what if' game either.

JAMES 1:13
When under trial, let no one say: I am being tried by God. For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. (also see Deut 34:2)

• I think you're looking at things from the wrong angle. God didn't manipulate events to ensure his words came true he merely looked into the future and was able to predict what would happen, then had it reported it in advance as prophecy.

As I said earlier, foreknowledge is not causation. If I knew someone was going to fall of a cliff, is this the same as scheming to get them to a cliffs edge and then pushing them? What if I was nowhere near the event at the time? Does it no longer qualify as a prediction?

God does not deal with evil, he did not manipulate events or collaborate or use evil men to ensure his son suffered and died ... that was Satan. Jehovah he did not arrange for a bribe to be in place, He did not use his power to make sure someone would be at hand to spit in his son's face to fulfill that or any of the other Messianic Prophecies pertaining to his son's torture.

God allowed these things to happen, he knew they would happen he had no hand in making them happen because he cannot do any thing that is evil and his goodness can have no collaboration with wickedness.

Attributing to God the manipulations of Satan is what makes Satan happiest of all.



JW

So do you think that when Jehovah looked into the future He saw Judas, before he was even born, betraying Jesus? If so, that would mean Judas was fated and the future is fixed. Not by Jehovah but by something else.

Yeah, that's nonsense. The brothers have said that Judas was at first considered loyal to Jehovah, and if he was not he never would have been picked by Him to be Jesus' Apostle. According to that idea, Jehovah did NOT look into the future and see Judas betraying Jesus.

.