viewtopic.php?p=851204#851204
JW posted the following image
In the previous thread, it was argued that the Jews did not understand their own prophecies.
Okay, let's go through the list shall we?
To make JW's case as easy as possible, I will use the NWT version of the Bible.
Prophecy - Born in Bethlehem
And you, O Bethʹle·hem Ephʹra·thah,+
The one too little to be among the thousands* of Judah,
From you will come out for me the one to be ruler in Israel,+
Whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago.
Fulfilled -
Of course, Joseph+ also went up from Galʹi·lee, from the city of Nazʹa·reth, into Ju·deʹa, to David’s city, which is called Bethʹle·hem,+ because of his being a member of the house and family of David.
Does the scripture not say that the Christ is coming from the offspring of David+ and from Bethʹle·hem,+ the village where David was?�
Hang on a moment...Ruler of Israel? Jesus was never crowned ruler/king of Israel. For me to consider this prophecy 'true' as having been fulfilled, I will need something more than some interpretation that says he's king of the universe, or is king in a theological sense.
If someone said there's a prophecy that a man being the eighth of his name will become King of England in the 1600s and I read a history book and learn about King Henry VIII, I will accept Henry VIII as being a valid crowned king.
So I consider this strike 1 against the JWs.
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Prophecy - Called out of refuge in Egypt
“When Israel was a boy, I loved him,+
And out of Egypt I called my son.
So Joseph got up and by night took along the young child and the child’s mother and went into Egypt.
I don't agree that what we see in Hosea is necessarily a prophecy. I know that Christians like to say there are double meanings in certain Bible verses, but I don't buy this. All I see in Hosea there is a reference to Israel the man, who was once named Jacob.
Besides, Jacob/Israel went INTO Egypt and never left. He lived there for 17 years and then died.
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Prophecy - Entered Jerusalem on an ass
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion.
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem.
Look! Your king is coming to you.+
He is righteous, bringing salvation,*
Humble+ and riding on a donkey,
On a colt,* the foal of a female donkey.
Fulfilled
When they got close to Jerusalem and arrived at Bethʹpha·ge on the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples,+ 2 saying to them: “Go into the village that is within sight, and you will at once find a donkey tied and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If someone says anything to you, you must say, ‘The Lord needs them.’ At that he will immediately send them.�
4 This actually took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet, who said: 5 “Tell the daughter of Zion: ‘Look! Your king is coming to you,+ mild-tempered+ and mounted on a donkey, yes, on a colt, the offspring of a beast of burden.’�+
6 So the disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them.+ 7 They brought the donkey and its colt, and they put their outer garments on them, and he sat on them.+ 8 Most of the crowd spread their outer garments on the road,+ while others were cutting down branches from the trees and spreading them on the road. 9 Moreover, the crowds going ahead of him and those following him kept shouting: “Save, we pray, the Son of David!+ Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s* name!+ Save him, we pray, in the heights above!�+
The infamous 'donkey prophecy', which has Jesus riding on two animals at once, all because the writer of Matthew was too quick to write something in order for Jesus to be 'seen' fulfilling prophecy, without understanding the source material.
The next day the large crowd that had come to the festival heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem. 13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, and they began to shout: “Save, we pray you! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s* name,+ the King of Israel!�+ 14 When Jesus found a young donkey, he sat on it,+ just as it is written: 15 “Have no fear, daughter of Zion. Look! Your king is coming, seated on a donkey’s colt.
Here, we have a contradiction. Matthew has him riding BOTH animals, John has him riding on one.
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Prophecy - Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
Then I said to them: “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, withhold them.� And they paid* my wages, 30 pieces of silver.+
Fulfilled
Then one of the Twelve, the one called Judas Is·carʹi·ot,+ went to the chief priests+ 15 and said: “What will you give me to betray him to you?�+ They stipulated to him 30 silver pieces.+
Then Judas, his betrayer, seeing that Jesus had been condemned, felt remorse and brought the 30 pieces of silver back to the chief priests and elders,+ 4 saying: “I sinned when I betrayed innocent blood.� They said: “What is that to us? You must see to it!�* 5 So he threw the silver pieces into the temple and departed. Then he went off and hanged himself.+ 6 But the chief priests took the silver pieces and said: “It is not lawful to put them into the sacred treasury, because they are the price of blood.� 7 After consulting together, they used the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for strangers. 8 Therefore, that field has been called Field of Blood+ to this very day. 9 Then what was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “And they took the 30 silver pieces, the price that was set on the man, the one on whom a price was set by some of the sons of Israel, 10
Wait a second...We have NOTHING from Jeremiah regarding a 30 silver pieces prophecy.
Also, how is what is said in Zechariah a prophecy? Are you Christians really scraping the bottom of the barrel here, in that you look for any similarity at all, and going "Oooh look! He was paid 30 pieces of silver!"
Really? Paying a wage for a job is a sign of divine prophecy? I guess I should be shouting 'Miracle!" from the roof-tops whenever I get my wageslip.
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Prophecy - Shepherd struck, flock scattered
“O sword, awake against my shepherd,+
Against the man who is my companion,� declares Jehovah of armies.
“Strike the shepherd,+ and let the flock* be scattered;+
And I will turn my hand against those who are insignificant.�
Fulfilled
Then Jesus said to them: “All of you will be stumbled in connection with me on this night, for it is written: ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered about.’
But all of this has taken place for the writings* of the prophets to be fulfilled.�+ Then all the disciples abandoned him and fled.+
Well, I guess that's it. The text just HAS to state flat out that it took place just as prophecied, and that's all one needs.
...why is the skeptic in me not liking the ahem, 'methodology', JW employs here?
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Prophecy: Pierced while on the stake
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication, and they will look to the one whom they pierced,+ and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son.
Fulfilled
But the rest of them said: “Let him be! Let us see whether E·liʹjah comes to save him.� 50 Again Jesus called out with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
Uhh...mentions nothing about him being pierced...indeed, what about the crowd wailing over him and grieving? I thought the crowd WANTED Jesus to be crucified.
But one of the soldiers jabbed his side with a spear,+ and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And the one who has seen it has given this witness, and his witness is true, and he knows that what he says is true, so that you also may believe.
And again, a different scripture says: “They will look to the one whom they pierced.�+
Wow doesn't look suspicious at all.
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Prophecy - In grave parts of 3 days, then resurrected
Jehovah now sent a huge fish to swallow Joʹnah, so that Joʹnah came to be in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights.+
In time Jehovah commanded the fish, and it vomited Joʹnah out onto the dry land.
Fulfilled
In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous* generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Joʹnah the prophet.+ 40 For just as Joʹnah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights,+ so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights
Uhh...the resurrection is supposed to have taken place on Sunday. Meaning Jesus at most would have been dead for TWO nights (Friday night, Saturday day, Saturday night, Sunday morning).
For Jesus to have been in the 'heart of the earth for three days and three nights' would mean that the discovery of the empty tomb would have taken place on the Monday, not Sunday.
From that time forward, Jesus began explaining to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed, and on the third day be raised up.
This contradicts what you point to above as him fulfilling the prophecy.
For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;+ 4 and that he was buried,+ yes, that he was raised up+ on the third day+ according to the Scriptures;+ 5 and that he appeared to Ceʹphas,*+ and then to the Twelve.+ 6 After that he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time,+ most of whom are still with us, though some have fallen asleep in death. 7 After that he appeared to James,+ then to all the apostles.+ 8 But last of all he appeared also to me+ as if to one born prematurely.
Even beyond the wrong day of the week...how is what is written in Jonah a prophecy?
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JW why is it you do not vet what it is you link to, before posting?
