Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

In the NT, Jesus is continually changing. He went from childhood to adulthood, for example. He can feel hunger, thirst, then eat, drink, feel satiated. He experiences happy moments and then sad ones. Just going through the basics of living requires continual change. If you consider the crucifixion, then Jesus went from not experiencing that kind of pain to experiencing it. That's a definite change.
And because Jesus underwent these changes, the early anti-Trinitarians argued Christ could not be God, because of their belief that God does not change and therefore cannot experience suffering.

We are talking about the Son of God. He always obeyed the father and every act He made was to do God's will. I don't recall a time where He said, "Should I do this or not? What is the better choice?" We are indecisive because we are not sure what option is better. Further, Jesus wasn't omniscient. I wanted scriptures about God changing His mind in the NT.

You asked about my sentence example. Well, just in uttering a single sentence, there are all kinds of mental changes you go through, from wanting to utter the sentence, then going to utter it, then the feeling of satisfaction you have from having fulfilled that want. Indeed, just going from word to word demands a change of mind. Now you want this word, not that other one, etc.

So there is a change of mind when Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through me?" It's a declaration of truth. It is immovable.

The example I gave from Malachi certainly does point to a change in God, and it says if they change, God will return, which implies God has distanced himself and then comes back to them.

That doesn't mean God changes. It means humans change. If a Christian gets lost and finds God again, does it mean God changes to accommodate them? It is humans that have distanced themselves from God.

The Bible does not say God knows all of the future as certain. In many passages, God's knowledge of future events is iffy, as in the case of Sodom, where God says, in effect, "If I find X." Jeremiah says that God gives warnings, then waits to see how a people will respond, before taking a definite course of action, forgiving or lowering the boom.

As I said, I want NT scriptures which I gave to you.

Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Predestined:


"...determine (an outcome or course of events) in advance by divine will or fate."


So there is a change of mind when Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through me?" It's a declaration of truth. It is immovable.

The example I gave from Malachi certainly does point to a change in God, and it says if they change, God will return, which implies God has distanced himself and then comes back to them.

That doesn't mean God changes. It means humans change. If a Christian gets lost and finds God again, does it mean God changes to accommodate them? It is humans that have distanced themselves from God.

The Bible does not say God knows all of the future as certain. In many passages, God's knowledge of future events is iffy, as in the case of Sodom, where God says, in effect, "If I find X." Jeremiah says that God gives warnings, then waits to see how a people will respond, before taking a definite course of action, forgiving or lowering the boom.

As I said, I want NT scriptures which I gave to you.

Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Predestined:


"...determine (an outcome or course of events) in advance by divine will or fate."

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 228 by Claire Evans]

I presented you with three major passages from the OT where God does change his mind. Now, given that Jesus is God, then yes, Jesus can change his mind, as I mentioned below. If he couldn't, then he couldn't move or utter a single sentence. Plus, becoming incarnate is a major change.

Also, omniscience does not mean God cannot change. God knows the future for what it is: the realm of possibilities, not things set in cement. Hence, whenever something happens, God undergoes a change from knowing X as merely potential to knowing X as actual.

So Revelation is not set in stone? Jesus will not come again? It's just a possibility?

[polonius]

An omniscient God cannot change his mind. But a non-divine Messiah can.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omniscient
omniscient - having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
possessed of universal or complete knowledge the omniscient God

And if the Bible says that God can change his mind, it isn't factual, only allegorical at best.

Not necessarily.

If there are levels of GOD-head, then while the ultimate default position of GOD might indeed be all knowing etc, this need not apply to all GODs which have different positions throughout the spectrum of life.

If, for example, the planet Earth is a living entity - a self conscious/self aware being which is able to access every conscious experience of form which is a part of life on the planet, it can be considered all knowing in relation to that, but not all knowing in relation to all that is.

Yet, by human standards, such a being could still be regarded as a God.

From the ultimate default position of GOD, such a being as a planet entity (and its immediate consciousness aspects - ie you and I) would be known.

From the perspective of the ultimate default position of GOD, every consciousness in form would be regarded as aspects of Itself, including planet Entities.

Since the bible GOD is obviously not all knowing, while that GOD can still be regarded as a God, It (They He, She) cannot be regarded as the ultimate GOD.
It can, however, change Its mind based upon new data.

The question then would be - "Is the Biblical GOD an accurate representation of the Ultimate GOD? {LINK}

RESPONSE: "If there are levels of GOD-head..."

"If there are..."?

There aren't. God is a unity. "Hear O Israel the Lord is one"

"Since the bible GOD is obviously not all knowing,..."

This demonstrates that the bible is the work of men, not God.

As omniscient and perfect, God would be all knowing, or he would not be God. One can't have an ignorant God. Sorry!

[Monta]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

Claire, I copied something you wrote but now lost it. Anyhow i am sure you'll appreciate this.

Read this only last night, another gem, I should say another key towards our understanding the scripture.

John 6:5,6
5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?

6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 242 by Claire Evans]



[center]It has not been established that it's even a possibility[/center]

So Revelation is not set in stone? Jesus will not come again? It's just a possibility?

It's a religious belief.
Not a fact.


It may not even BE a possibility.

[polonius]

Hoghead posted:

Saying that God is omniscient does not deny God can change. I think of God as Cosmic Artist, the one who lures toward higher beauty, rather than a cosmic dictator who has predestined and predetermined every detail of creation. Because we have genuine freedom, we have to decide for ourselves. God cannot decide our decisions for us. And that means God knows the future for what it is in its own nature: the realm of possibilities, not matters set in cement. Whenever we made a decision, whenever something happens, God's knowledge changes, as God moves from knowing X as merely potential or possible to knowing X as actualized, qa definite matter of fact.

RESPONSE:

If God is the only eternal self-existent reality, where can any change come from? It can't be from outside himself since nothing exists outside himself.

And if he changes, he either gains or loses something. Since nothing exists outside himself, he can only lose something or become less. No more "omni" anything!

In short, God cannot change!

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 243 by polonius.advice]

[center]

All too many people imagine that whatever they believe has to be a fact[/center]

As omniscient and perfect, God would be all knowing, or he would not be God. One can't have an ignorant God. Sorry!

You can't have it, can you?
So therefore, it's not a fact?

Incredulity isn't the same as reasoning.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 241 by Claire Evans]





[center]If God can't change his mind, there is no free will[/center]

He always obeyed the father and every act He made was to do God's will. I don't recall a time where He said, "Should I do this or not? What is the better choice?"

So much for free will.

So there is a change of mind when Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through me?" It's a declaration of truth. It is immovable.

There seems to be only ONE WAY.. no choices.
Whatever God wills... that's it. It is immovable.

I suppose God can only will the once.
Where's the free will?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 238 by dio9]



[center]My thoughts are my own, not of some psychopath[/center]

The prophet said , my thoughts are not your thoughts ; but I say may God's thoughts be my thoughts.

The prophet said "MAY gods thoughts be my thoughts".. he didn't even bother to claim that they were.

God's are free and good with no personal bag of angst.

Wrong.

That's a very nice statement of belief.
It also assumes that you know the mind of God.

You present as someone who pretends to know more than Job about what God's thoughts happen to be. And as Job was quick to find out.. God told him he was WRONG, too.

Nice belief about God, though.

Jesus taught God is our parent.

Only allegedly so.

We have no idea who wrote the Gospels, why, or how accurate any of the statements they report are. It may all be "Fake News". ( religious propaganda )

If you are a parent you know what this means, you always wish the best for your children. This doesn't change.

Wrong.

Unfortunately, the situation you describe isn't always the case.
I think you meant "generally".

Some parents actually wish the worst for their kids. ( death )

And of course, some parents change their minds about their kids, and some do not.

That's wrong two ways.

May God's thoughts be your thoughts.

Look, I know you mean well... it's just that not everyone in here believes what you do. When I read the Bible, my opinion of the god is that he is an insanely evil psychopath. I don't want to be like that.

I'm quite sure that most Christians will disagree with my interpretation of the Bible character "God".


I don't want to think like the god of the Bible.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 243 by polonius.advice]


[center]

Pass the Holy Syrup[/center]

God is a unity. "Hear O Israel the Lord is one"

The ONE might have a lot of layers. Like a stack of pancakes.
God is ONE stack ... different levels of yumminess.