Does God cause evil?

[DanieltheDragon]

Does God cause evil?

Some assert that God causes no evil. Is there cause to believe this is true. Can this position be supported. Is the character described in the bible incapable of evil?

I would assert that a position that claims God created everything would make him the original cause of evil. That God cannot escape being the cause of evil since he created any and all situations in which evil would arise.

[William]

[Replying to post 108 by ttruscott]

So GOD could do evil if GOD wanted to.

[ttruscott]

Well, let us use your clay pot analogy. The creator of the clay pot is NOT responsible if someone misuses the clay pot by putting poison in the stew. However, in the case of god, did not god also create the POISON? Does that not make god at least partially responsible for giving someone the opportunity to poison someone else?

No because someone else chose to use it that way...sigh.

So answer the analogy instead of the contention it points to? That is:
IF GOD does not create these desires to do evil, that which is known to be against GOD, then HE is not the cause of their evil.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 90 by Donray]

The Christian religion is not monolithic, just one way. Some people stereotype it that way, but it isn't true. Christianity has always been pluralistic, a rich tapestry of diverse approaches which often do conflict. Some people a disgruntled with this, feeling it just leads to spiritual confusion. However, I like it, I love it, I want some more of it. Why? As a plurality, Christianity provides you with choices, freedom. If one church doe not work for you, then try another. The "right" church for you is that one that brings you close to God. You have to decide for yourself. Modern Christianity represents a whole spectrum of beliefs, which I like to think as ranging from liberal to conservative. I identify with liberal Christianity, However, I appreciate the fact there are many people who have trouble with their freedom, trouble thinking for themselves, need rigid structure. So for some, the right-wing, narrow-minded as it may be, is the way for them to go.

Historically, there have been three major appeals to ultimate authority, in Christendom. There is church-type Christianity, where the church is the ultimate authority, your conscience. There is sect-type Christianity, where the Biobl3 is ultimate authority. And there is mystical-type Christianity, where one's experiences are the ultimate authorui8ty. I go with this latter approach.

The reason for these three is that all people are different. What works for one person may not work for another.

As I said, I don't hold with the notion that God is vengeful and punitive. So I do not consider the Bible inerrant. The Bible is not the Word of God. The Bible is the Word of Humankind. God is somehow revealed through the word of Humankind. Divinely inspired as it may be, the Bible is still the product of a pre-scientific, semi-barbaric, racist-sexist culture and subject to the limitations such a culture imposes on one.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 108 by ttruscott]

So GOD could do evil if GOD wanted to.

Of course but HIS loving commitment to the members of the Trinity and to us is so perfect HE never will. Nor will the holy angels - that is what holy means, to be completely and totally dedicated to GOD and HIS ways.

So neither will we ever choose evil again once we are made righteous in holiness. Everyone could; no one will.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 97 by ttruscott]

Then by that definition I couldn't say whether or not God creates evil. He definitely allows for the option of it. Is that the same as creating it?

But I just said that by DOing evil, choosing and DOing it is it created and so is the person who made the choice...not the parent who brought the child to life.

Satan is evil. One minute he was not evil, then he was...he created evil by doing it and he created his moral character as eternally evil.

This must have come as quite a surprise to God, who apparently did not create Satan to be evil, and was not expecting it to happen.

What makes you think it was a surprise? I hinted at nothing like that; the Bible hints at nothing like that...hmmm, only you seem to think like that with no reason why at all...it is illogical.

Of course when HE created us with the ability and opportunity to chose to be evil HE knew some MIGHT choose evil so it was obviously no surprise when a few did.

What makes you think it was a surprise? I hinted at nothing like that; the Bible hints at nothing like that...hmmm, only you seem to think like that with no reason why at all...it is illogical.

Of course when HE created us with the ability and opportunity to chose to be evil HE knew some MIGHT choose evil so it was obviously no surprise when a few did.

If the origination of evil was not a surprise, then God must have gotten the result He intended to get when He created Satan. God got the result He intended to get when He created Adam and Eve and the serpent and brought them altogether in the Garden of Eden. God knew exactly what the result would be when He placed the tree of knowledge in the garden and instructed Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. All of these things God KNEW would occur without possible exception and everything is going exactly according to plan. As it surely must. And so there is NO free will. Which is exactly why the Bible makes no such promise. Everything is following God's predetermined path.

So when you stand in final judgement before God and discover that the one true religion was Zoroastrianism all along, won't YOU be surprised! God won't be surprised though. God knew you would get it wrong from before you were ever born. And there's no way out. Your whole life has been a total waste of time which you could never have changed anyway

[William]

[Replying to post 108 by ttruscott]

So GOD could do evil if GOD wanted to.

Of course but HIS loving commitment to the members of the Trinity and to us is so perfect HE never will. Nor will the holy angels - that is what holy means, to be completely and totally dedicated to GOD and HIS ways.

So neither will we ever choose evil again once we are made righteous in holiness. Everyone could; no one will.

Isn't the myth about the fallen angels those who chose evil? Thus, they cannot have been created holy according to what you have said here.

Sounds to me like an evolution of beings from unholy to holy and the fact that those made righteous first had to be sinful in order to have the experience of knowing the difference, so that even when they could choose to be evil, they won't because they know where that leads.

[Demented_Literature]

[Replying to post 108 by ttruscott]

Of course but HIS loving commitment to the members of the Trinity and to us is so perfect HE never will. Nor will the holy angels - that is what holy means, to be completely and totally dedicated to GOD and HIS ways.

So neither will we ever choose evil again once we are made righteous in holiness. Everyone could; no one will.

What makes you think that god is loving and has commitment to the members of the trinity? Or that HE never will? Has he not commanded genocide in the past? A direct command from god that depicts evil as the correct course of action?

[ttruscott]

If the origination of evil was not a surprise, then God must have gotten the result He intended to get when He created Satan.

What horrendous logic. He did not know what we would choose but the possibility was real someone could choose evil so it was not a surprise when Satan did but that doesn't mean that HE wanted Satan to choose evil nor created him to do that. It doesn't make any sense.....

God got the result He intended to get when He created Adam and Eve and the serpent and brought them altogether in the Garden of Eden. God knew exactly what the result would be when He placed the tree of knowledge in the garden and instructed Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. All of these things God KNEW would occur without possible exception and everything is going exactly according to plan. As it surely must. And so there is NO free will. Which is exactly why the Bible makes no such promise. Everything is following God's predetermined path.

Of course. You could write this paragraph in the PCE Book. But only for sinners who have lost their free will to the addictive influence of evil clouding their minds, not for those with a free will. No one on earth has a free will and all live lives perfectly determined to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and holiness so the postponement of the judgement may end.

Good luck with your Zoroastrianism...

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 108 by ttruscott]

So GOD could do evil if GOD wanted to.

Of course but HIS loving commitment to the members of the Trinity and to us is so perfect HE never will. Nor will the holy angels - that is what holy means, to be completely and totally dedicated to GOD and HIS ways.

So neither will we ever choose evil again once we are made righteous in holiness. Everyone could; no one will.

Isn't the myth about the fallen angels those who chose evil? Thus, they cannot have been created holy according to what you have said here.

Not all the angels chose to be evil, did they. Some are called the holy angels so they can never have chosen evil: Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels.

Sounds to me like an evolution of beings from unholy to holy and the fact that those made righteous first had to be sinful in order to have the experience of knowing the difference, so that even when they could choose to be evil, they won't because they know where that leads.

Sounds like that to others too but it is sure the low road and making everyone innocent and able to choose to be holy or evil is the high road. Do you think that Michael the archangel really misses something by not have been created sinful? Do you not think he knows the difference between Satan and himself?

I know this is your favourite bit, probably having come to it by yourself without a teaching but does it really have the quality of thought that makes it acceptable in Christian doctrine?

GOD makes HIS Bride evil so She can understand what the Bliss of holiness is? HE hates evil, and the selfish corrupt suffering it causes... HE would never put HIS Bride though that... it is inadequate to the horror let alone it dismisses free will guilt.

[Joe1950]

[Replying to post 110 by ttruscott]

Well. IF god is all powerful then god ALLOWS free will. Or are you suggesting that god is NOT all powerful?
Do you see my point? Simply saying that we have "free will" does not speak to the power of god.
So, which is it? Does god permit free will or does god not have the ability to deny free will? It must be one or the other.