Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[tam]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

With Christ and God, yes. Not just being with them in heaven, mind you, but also upon the earth. Since the Bride (the New Jerusalem) comes down out of heaven. Rev 21:2


Christ said that we would be like the angels... and the angels can move between the two realms (physical and spiritual - earth and heaven). Just as Christ showed that He can do. Just as Adam could do before he was cast out of the garden (the spiritual realm).

Christ even said that His sheep would be able to come in and go out, and find pasture.

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. John 10:9

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

Certainly.

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?

My Lord Jaheshua is at the right hand of God, yes.

But He is also here with me (and all who belong to Him) by means of holy spirit (which is the water of Life that Christ gives; the anointing of holy spirit; the breath that He poured out upon His apostles, and others, after His resurrection).


Which is how the Kingdom is also within us, as He said. Because the KING is in us (and us in Him), by means of holy spirit (the blood, breath, seed of Jah - which Jah has given to His Son without end, and that His Son pours out and gives to whomever He chooses).




May any who wish them be given ears to hear so as to hear the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come!" Many anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."



Peace to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Two scriptural subjects need to be clearly understood here.

Okay...

(1)Revelation 21:2. "New Jerusalem" coming down is no more literal than the Bride of Christ being a literal city.

This is the opinion of the WTS, I know.

But the New Jerusalem doesn't just come down... she comes down OUT OF heaven. Literally. (and the Bride is a city... she is just a city made of people.) She rules with Christ as kings and priests for a thousand years, and that reign is upon the earth.

"... and they are to rules as kings upon the earth." Rev 5:10


I realize the wts renders "upon" as "over" in this verse (in the NWT), but this is in keeping with their own theology. Making the text fit the theology instead of making the theology fit the text, so to speak. They do render the word as upon (or on) just a couple verses later in the same chapter.


Interestingly, and I just looked this up on one of your sites, the Kingdom interlinear renders "epi" in this verse as "upon":

"... and they are reigning upon the earth."

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/int/ ... y=discover



So here are two verses stating that the New Jerusalem (the Bride) comes down out of heaven, and reigning with Christ upon the earth. They compliment one another exactly as they are.


The WTS has to interpret these clear meanings away, and even change the basic meaning of a word in the process.


On top of the above two verses, in the parable of the sheep and the goats, the King comes in all His glory, and the sheep and the goats are gathered before Him. He is speaking to them, and they are speaking to Him.

The Bride of Christ---New Jerusalem---consists of Christ's anointed co-rulers who will rule over the earth from heaven.

See above. They will reign upon the earth. Even according to your own Kingdom interlinear. Besides, the New Jerusalem is clearly stated as coming down OUT OF heaven.

If they have come down OUT OF heaven, they cannot be ruling FROM IN heaven.

This composite "city" will "come down" in the sense that , for example, God Himself has "come down" to the earth to "dwell with" humans in the past. Has he literally done so? No. The planet cannot contain the Creator of the universe.

But it can contain the city of New Jerusalem, the city made of people: the Bride. Though she is free to move between the physical and the spiritual, as the angels can do, as Christ can do, as Adam could do in the beginning.

"Will God truly dwell upon the earth? The heaven of the heavens cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house [temple] that I have built!" (I Kings 8:27, words of King Solomon)

God said, in times of old:

"I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar....I will dwell among the sons of Israel and will be their God. They shall know that I am the LORD their God who brought them out of the land of Egypt, that I might dwell among them; I am the LORD their God." (Exodus 29:45,46, NASB)

Did He literally come down to the earth and live with the Israelites?

I'm sure you will admit that He did not. So how are we to understand Revelation 21:2? Wouldn't it be in the same sense?

No, it would not be in the same sense. For all the reasons and examples given above.


**

As to the rest, I never said that the Kingdom was just some feeling or idea in someone's heart. Perhaps you were responding to someone else with that part?

So I am going to leave that part of your response alone for the moment.



Peace again to you, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

With Christ and God, yes. Not just being with them in heaven, mind you, but also upon the earth. Since the Bride (the New Jerusalem) comes down out of heaven. Rev 21:2


Christ said that we would be like the angels... and the angels can move between the two realms (physical and spiritual - earth and heaven). Just as Christ showed that He can do. Just as Adam could do before he was cast out of the garden (the spiritual realm).

Christ even said that His sheep would be able to come in and go out, and find pasture.

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. John 10:9

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

Certainly.

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?

My Lord Jaheshua is at the right hand of God, yes.

But He is also here with me (and all who belong to Him) by means of holy spirit (which is the water of Life that Christ gives; the anointing of holy spirit; the breath that He poured out upon His apostles, and others, after His resurrection).


Which is how the Kingdom is also within us, as He said. Because the KING is in us (and us in Him), by means of holy spirit (the blood, breath, seed of Jah - which Jah has given to His Son without end, and that His Son pours out and gives to whomever He chooses).




May any who wish them be given ears to hear so as to hear the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come!" Many anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."



Peace to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Two scriptural subjects need to be clearly understood here.

Okay...

(1)Revelation 21:2. "New Jerusalem" coming down is no more literal than the Bride of Christ being a literal city.

This is the opinion of the WTS, I know.

But the New Jerusalem doesn't just come down... she comes down OUT OF heaven. Literally. (and the Bride is a city... she is just a city made of people.) She rules with Christ as kings and priests for a thousand years, and that reign is upon the earth.

"... and they are to rules as kings upon the earth." Rev 5:10


I realize the wts renders "upon" as "over" in this verse (in the NWT), but this is in keeping with their own theology. Making the text fit the theology instead of making the theology fit the text, so to speak. They do render the word as upon (or on) just a couple verses later in the same chapter.


Interestingly, and I just looked this up on one of your sites, the Kingdom interlinear renders "epi" in this verse as "upon":

"... and they are reigning upon the earth."

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/int/ ... y=discover



So here are two verses stating that the New Jerusalem (the Bride) comes down out of heaven, and reigning with Christ upon the earth. They compliment one another exactly as they are.


The WTS has to interpret these clear meanings away, and even change the basic meaning of a word in the process.


On top of the above two verses, in the parable of the sheep and the goats, the King comes in all His glory, and the sheep and the goats are gathered before Him. He is speaking to them, and they are speaking to Him.

The Bride of Christ---New Jerusalem---consists of Christ's anointed co-rulers who will rule over the earth from heaven.

See above. They will reign upon the earth. Even according to your own Kingdom interlinear. Besides, the New Jerusalem is clearly stated as coming down OUT OF heaven.

If they have come down OUT OF heaven, they cannot be ruling FROM IN heaven.

This composite "city" will "come down" in the sense that , for example, God Himself has "come down" to the earth to "dwell with" humans in the past. Has he literally done so? No. The planet cannot contain the Creator of the universe.

But it can contain the city of New Jerusalem, the city made of people: the Bride. Though she is free to move between the physical and the spiritual, as the angels can do, as Christ can do, as Adam could do in the beginning.

"Will God truly dwell upon the earth? The heaven of the heavens cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house [temple] that I have built!" (I Kings 8:27, words of King Solomon)

God said, in times of old:

"I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar....I will dwell among the sons of Israel and will be their God. They shall know that I am the LORD their God who brought them out of the land of Egypt, that I might dwell among them; I am the LORD their God." (Exodus 29:45,46, NASB)

Did He literally come down to the earth and live with the Israelites?

I'm sure you will admit that He did not. So how are we to understand Revelation 21:2? Wouldn't it be in the same sense?

No, it would not be in the same sense. For all the reasons and examples given above.


**

As to the rest, I never said that the Kingdom was just some feeling or idea in someone's heart. Perhaps you were responding to someone else with that part?

So I am going to leave that part of your response alone for the moment.



Peace again to you, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You are unfair in your statement that "it is just WT theology" that states that the kings and priests with Christ will reign OVER the earth. You apparently didn't notice that I quote this out of the "Holy Trinity" Edition of the Catholic Bible." So that translation is not unique to the WT.

"And hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign OVER the earth."


It is the same Greek word that appears in chapter 11 and verse 6: "...and they have authority OVER the waters to turn them into blood..."


It is understood that the word can be rendered either way, "over" or "on." Revelation 11:6 would not make sense if we used "on," would it? So the thoughtful person would not eschew the usage of "over" in the passage at Rev.5:10.

[tam]

[Replying to post 42 by onewithhim]

You are unfair in your statement that "it is just WT theology" that states that the kings and priests with Christ will reign OVER the earth.

I said, the WTS renders this word as over instead of as upon, in KEEPING with their theology. Every other time the word epi appears in chapter 5 of Revelation, it is rendered upon.

Even in the Kingdom interlinear, the word is rendered upon, instead of over, in the very passage under dispute. As I linked to your own site, above.

You apparently didn't notice that I quote this out of the "Holy Trinity" Edition of the Catholic Bible." So that translation is not unique to the WT.

That does not make the rendering correct.

"And hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign OVER the earth."


It is the same Greek word that appears in chapter 11 and verse 6: "...and they have authority OVER the waters to turn them into blood..."

Please note in the example that you give from chapter 11 and verse 6, "over" is being used as one having authority over something.


The word 'over' is not being used as a location... it is not being used as a synonym for 'above'.


I have authority over my children. I am not hovering over - above - them in the sky.


The Bride reigns as kings and priests UPON the earth. They may have authority as kings and priests over the earth.


But they are not reigning ABOVE the earth.

It is understood that the word can be rendered either way, "over" or "on." Revelation 11:6 would not make sense if we used "on," would it? So the thoughtful person would not eschew the usage of "over" in the passage at Rev.5:10.

See above, as well as the additional reasons I shared in my original response to your post.


The WTS is incorrect in their interpretation of this verse and of this matter.



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to get a sense of the truth of these things. May anyone who thirst and seeks, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Every other time the word epi appears in chapter 5 of Revelation, it is rendered upon.

EPI: Rule "over" or rule "on"?

Certain accuse the NWT of mistranslation or bias by rendering Revelation 5:10 as "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." but is this true?

Firstly it should be noted that "over" is a legitimate English rendition of the Greek word "epi". The NASB renders "epi" 54 times as "over" and Strongs #1907 has the entry for "epi" a follows:

[click to enlarge]

source: http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S1909

From the above it is clear that the word can be translated in a wide variety of ways according to the context, does the context of Revelation 5:10 favor a particular choice? Yes.

While when refering to location (place) "on" or "upon" may well be suitable (as in the other occurances of "epi" in chapter 5 of revelation), when associated with authority or the distribution thereof, "epi" is consistently rendered in English as "over".


source: http://biblehub.com/greek/1909.htm

REVELATION 2:26 - King James Bible
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over [epi] the nations

REVELATION 9:11 - English Standard Version
They have as king over [epi] them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

REVELATION 17:18 - Douay-Rheims Bible
And the woman which thou sawest, is the great city, which hath kingdom over [epi] the kings of the earth.

Further note Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon which states that epi

"A. with the GENITIVE .... I. of Place; and 1. of the place on which; .... d. fig. used of things, affairs, persons, which one is set over, over which he exercises power .... Rev. v. 10;" - p. 231, Baker Book House, 1977.

OBJECTION: But "epi" is rendered "on" or "upon" all the other times the word appears in chapter 5 of Revelation?

This is not particularly significant. While it is true that both Rev.5:3 and 5.13 use the same Greek words, namely, EPI THS GHS, literally, "on the earth," they contain clear indications of location. Revelation 5.10 however exclusively has the word BASILENW, "to reign" associated with it. It would be poor exegesis to simply ignore the absence in verse 10 of a clear indication of location, over the explicit mention of authority. Just as a mother doesn't exercise authority "on" or "upon" her children by sitting on them (indicative of location), the word authority is decisive in Revelation 5:10. The verse preceding 5:10 speaks of individuals being taken from various national groups to rule and then indicates the direction rather than the location of that rule. Thus Revelation 5:10, rather than paralleling 5:3, 13 are paralles of Revelation 2:26 (see above).

CONCLUSION: Both context and linguistic structure favor the translations, such as the NWT, that translate epi in Revelation 5:10 as "over" the earth rather than "on the earth".


Further reading:
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/revelation5.10.htm

[tam]

[Replying to post 44 by JehovahsWitness]


Peace to you!


I believe I made the same point above, that epi could be rendered as over (as in having authority over something/something)... but not as in being above something, as in location.


That being said - and without anything other than this one verse to go by - one could reign upon the earth (as in location)... or... one could reign over the earth (as in have authority over the earth).

But there is no need to change 'epi' (as upon) to 'over' in this case... unless one is promoting a particular doctrine that does not mesh with 'upon'. Even the kingdom interlinear recognizes that epi translates first as upon.


In any case, we don't have to take just that verse on its own, not to understand it and not to create a theology around it. There are other verses that contradict the Bride ruling over the earth from within heaven. Indeed, there is one scripture in particular that does this.

Revelation 21:2 explicitly states that the New Jerusalem (the Bride) comes down OUT OF heaven.



In addition to that, as stated earlier, the King (Christ) comes in all of His glory, and the nations are gathered before Him, to be separated into the sheep and the goats. He speaks to them, and they speak to Him. He is present and seen and heard. And every eye WILL see Him, as He has said.

I know the wts interprets that as symbolic as well... but anything written that does not mesh with their theology is seen as symbolic, and that is exactly what every other 'daughter' out there does, when the text does not match with their particular theology/interpretation.


According to the WTS:

The 144 000 is deemed to be a literal number, but the actual tribes listed in the 144 000 are deemed to be symbolic. (doesn't match the wts doctrine of the 144 000, so it can't all be literal)

The great crowd are deemed to be upon the earth, and so the verse that clearly states that they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple is deemed to be symbolic. (doesn't match the wts doctrine of the great crowd being separated from the 144 000 - the 144 000 in heaven and the great crowd upon the earth).


The sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) are deemed to be the great crowd (loyal jws), and the wts magazines tell you exactly how you can do good to Christ (by volunteering time, money, etc, to witness work of the JW's, to obeying the elders and GB, etc - none of these things are actually written in the parable as things that Christ said the sheep do, mind you, and for good reason). And yet the wts ignores the fact that the sheep in the parable did not know that they had done good to Christ. Indeed they have to ASK Christ, "Lord when did we feed you, clothe you, visit you, house you, etc?"


If the WTS interpretation of this parable is correct, and a JW is standing before the King, how in the world is that JW going to ask him that question?


I mentioned above a "good reason" that things like obedience to elders and witness work, and volunteering time or money to that organization... are not mentioned in the parable. The good reason is because the sheep in the parable are NOT CHRISTIAN. They are people from the nations who are known BY Christ, due to what they have done to even a least on of his brothers, proving that they have the law (of love) upon their hearts. But again, if the WTS interpretation is correct, the sheep WOULD ALREADY know that they are doing such things to Christ, because the WTS has TOLD them what to do: give time and money and obedience to them (the elders, the GB, etc), and that doing such things to them is the same as doing such things to Christ.


**

As well, we are supposed to be obeying everything that Christ commanded the apostles. Everything.


"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded YOU."


He commanded His apostles to eat and drink of His body and blood. (He also commanded them to wash one another's feet.)


The WTS interpretations serve to keep one from eating and drinking as Christ commanded. The WTS has created a division, put up a wall between those who profess to be Christian among them. Dividing them into two groups: earthly hope and heavenly hope. Anointed and non-anointed. Rulers and subjects. The WTS even teaches that they will be separated (literally) because those in heaven remain there and those on the earth remain there. And though there are verses that show this division and these interpretations to be false, those verses are explained away as being 'symbolic'.


My Lord is reminding me of something that He taught another of His servants (who shared with the rest of us), concerning the holy mountain of God. So I'm going to share some verses with you.



They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11:9


"The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," Isaiah 65:25


these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Isaiah 56:7

"I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain." Psalm 2:6

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.


Mount Zion (where John sees the 144 000 standing with the Lamb) and the Holy Mountain (where you state those with an earthly hope are located on earth), are the same.


Mount Zion is God's holy mountain.


**


I know that most jws put in a lot of time and effort, making sacrifices as well, doing what they believe God wants them to do. But a religion cannot lead anyone into all truth, or into life, or even to God.

Only Christ can do this. We have to listen to and follow Him. Obey His commands and remain in His word. As Peter said when my Lord asked him if the apostles wanted to leave him too (over the same issue of eating and drinking His body and blood):

"Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life."





Peace also to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 43 by tam]

I disagree. I am of the opinion that the WT has indeed used the correct rendering of the Greek word "epi," which can mean "over." Jesus and his co-rulers will reign from heaven, OVER the earth.

I explained why this is the only meaning that makes sense, according to other Scriptures that address the same issues that are present within the subject of Christ or Jehovah administering a government. Included in that issue is whether or not God, who created the universe, could possibly literally come down out of heaven and live on this planet. Scriptures were provided that show this to be out of the question, as well as examples of God saying He would live amidst the Israelites in the past and it was seen that He didn't do it in a LITERAL way. On the same vein, Jesus said that he would "be with" his disciples from the 1st century up to now, yet he is still in heaven. (Matt.28:20; Acts 2:33; Hebrews 8:1)

[Blastcat]

I am of the opinion that the WT has indeed used the correct rendering of the Greek word "epi," which can mean "over." Jesus and his co-rulers will reign from heaven, OVER the earth.

Are there other meanings for the word "over"?
As in "authority over you", or better yet "rule over you"?

Or even better, how about God rules from Air Force "THE ONE TRUE PLANE"?
A podium?

A soapbox?

What if god is like 12 feet tall and stands OVER everyone?

[onewithhim]

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[Monta]

[Replying to post 45 by tam]

"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

Mount Zion (where John sees the 144 000 standing with the Lamb) and the Holy Mountain (where you state those with an earthly hope are located on earth), are the same."

Since the 12 tribes used to signify the Lord's Church as to all the truths and goods thereof, therefore the number 12 became the number for the Church, and of common usage in the rites thereof, so that:-

In the breastplate of judgment, where were the Urim and Thummim, there were 12 precious stones Exod. xxviii 21.

12 loaves of faces were put upon the table in the tabernacle Lev. xxiv 5, 6.

Moses built an altar below Mount Sinai, and set up 12 pillars Exod. xxiv 4.

12 men were sent to search out the land of Canaan Deut. i 23.

12 men carried 12 stones out of the midst of the Jordan Josh. iv 1-9, 20.

12 princes at the dedication of the altar brought 12 silver dishes, 12 silver bowls, 12 gold censers, 12 young bullocks, 12 rams, 12 lambs and 12 he-goats Num. vii 84, 87.

Elijah took up 12 stones and built an altar 1 Kings xviii 31, 32.

Elijah found Elisha, when he was ploughing with 12 yoke [of oxen], and himself among the twelve, and that then he cast his mantle upon him 1 Kings xix 19.

Solomon placed 12 oxen under the bronze sea 1 Kings vii 25, 44.

He made a throne, and 12 lions standing at the steps thereof 1 Kings x 19, 20.

Upon the head of the woman encompassed with the sun was a crown of 12 stars Rev. xii 1.

From these things it can now be established that by the 144,000 sealed, 52,000 out of each individual tribe, are understood, not so many in number of Jews and Israelites, but all of the Christian New Heaven and the New Church, who will be in truths of doctrine out of the good of love from the Lord by means of the Word.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 48 by onewithhim]

To the moderator, OnceConvinced: I am sorry. Wow, I was breaking all kinds of rules yesterday! My bad.