Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[marco]

Wait a sec. What "common-sense methods"? What "wrong conclusions"? My point is that the logic of perfection in classical theism is a lopsided concept of perfection, both for God and for humans as well.

The God you have invented, an all-encompassing universality, endowed with the ability to sense our every action and respond to it is an artist's picture of what a human would imagine God to be. That you divorce yourself from classical ideas and so claim a superior model does not mean that the model is correct in its details.

The basis for your apparent certainty seems to be a few years spent toiling over paragraphs and issuing your own findings in a thesis. I am not making light of academic toil - I've done enough to know the investment - but while it might make a good read, it does not and cannot call God into existence. The best you can say is: 'Hey, here's a good idea, and here are a few reasons why it's a good idea.' And those that judge it a good idea are NOT accepting God has been discovered, but that a student has done some work worthy of reward. God remains hidden. Rebuttals are not required, just an understanding of what has been achieved and what it is possible to achieve. We can say WELL DONE and still accept God has not been found.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 360 by hoghead1]

We already went through al that in along discussion we had back in January, however.

So much for that then.
You are safe.

As long as we had the discussion before you must be clear now?
I don't recall you being very clear in January, either.

I'm not buying this for a second, my friend.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 361 by marco]

Your post does not address the questions I posed to you about your position. Instead, it focuses on me. Sure looks like a big cop out.

What you say about my work would also apply to anything you have to say as well. Problem is, I can't find your supporting arguments. In theological discussions, the responsibility is on you to provide rebuttals, if you can. If you don't want to do that, then why come into a discussion group?
Also, we've been getting way off topic. The issue is whether or not God changes. Let's tick to that. The OP assumes God does exist, so arguments over the existence of God, belong in another subforum.

[marco]

[Replying to post 361 by marco]

Your post does not address the questions I posed to you about your position. Instead, it focuses on me. Sure looks like a big cop out.

Hoghead, a great Amazon divides us and it seems there is no way of crossing it. I believed I addressed the remarks you made to me, largely telling me I was in error.

"What you are doing seems akin to the traditional via negative .... My criticism is that this renders the whole concept of God meaningless, as well as insisting on a lopsided, unrealistic concept ...... I am claiming your whole method is wrong ..... "


Whether or not God changes his mind, it is clear that WE don't, so we must go our separate ways, untouched by the arguments of the other.

I accept that the God you've invented, if it has a mind, changes it in accordance with what man allows it to change. It reminds me of the beast in Yeats' Second Coming:

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Go well.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 358 by hoghead1]


[center]

We attach meanings to words, not the other way around[/center]

My criticism is that this renders the whole concept of God meaningless

Who said that the concept of "God" has any real meaning?
Some people who style themselves "ignostics" say that they don't even understand the word.

I'd say that there might just be as many "meanings" for the term as there are people who believe it exists. ( or she exists, or they, or it )

As a scholar who has a PHd on this subject, perhaps you can give us a rough estimate on how many kinds of concepts of gods there might be.

You seem to write as if there were only two.
And you are promoting just the one.

Something about a process or somesuch.

[Joe1950]

OP: Does god change his mind?
Does god have a mind to change? Perhaps that is a new debate?
Assuming that there is a "god" and that god does have something we call a "mind".
Why not? The Greek gods changed their minds all the time. I would think god would be smart enough to take in new data and change his mind accordingly. (Which is not possible for some humans). Perhaps the ability to "change your mind" when confronted with new data is the ESSENCE of god!
According to Catholic tradition if I commit a mortal sin I am condemned to hell. But if I am sorry and get absolution, god "changes his mind" and just gives me a short time in purgatory. Still hurts, but not forever. Is that an example of god changing his mind?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 366 by Joe1950]


[center]

How many kinds of gods can I come up with?.... to many Christians, it's the ONLY one they already got. Some don't seem to even be able to think of any other kinds.[/center]

OP: Does god change his mind?
Does god have a mind to change? Perhaps that is a new debate?

Yes...

Maybe two:

1. Does God have mind to change?
2. Does God have matter to change?

Some people are so in love with the particular concept of a god that they happen to hold that they seem to not be ABLE to think of anything else.

A glorious lack of imagination, if you ask me.

[marco]

According to Catholic tradition if I commit a mortal sin I am condemned to hell. But if I am sorry and get absolution, god "changes his mind" and just gives me a short time in purgatory. Still hurts, but not forever. Is that an example of god changing his mind?

Not really, Joe. Mortal sin condemns us to hell if we are unlucky enough to die in mortal sin. As long as we breathe there is hope (dum spiro, spero, the Romans said), and we can repent and be saved. Our sinful state merits Purgatory unless we have had the extreme good fortune to gain a plenary indulgence, which excuses us from the waiting period in Purgatory. In overseeing this theological legislature, God isn't changing his mind.

Or so the theory goes.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 364 by marco]

I am willing to discuss the matter in more detail with you, though in a separate OP. However, if you wish to drop it, that's OK with me. We can maybe take it up at some future point when we are both refreshed.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 366 by Joe1950]

The problem is that the early church incorporated massive amounts of Hellenic metaphysics. The latter enshrined the immune and the immutable. To make a long story short , this led to what might be called classical theism, the traditional model or picture of God as he is in his own nature. Accordingly, the major church fathers, creeds, and confessions, argued that God is wholly immutable, could not change in any respect. That was taken as absolute dogma to be believed absolutely. In the last century, however, the classical model has been challenged on a number of grounds, and neo-classical theists, such as myself, have stressed the need to attribute dynamic, contingent aspects to God. So, in many circles today, it is a very new idea to consider God as changing in key aspects.