Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[dio9]

If you were addressing Jehovah (the God of the Bible), then I'm sure He heard you. Just maybe He answered you but you didn't accept that answer when it came. Is that possible?

Well I was first 7 years old when I gave my life to God. I can't remember anything about it, but I know I would have been completely genuine. I'm sure Jehovah would have welcomed me with opened arms. Even before that I used to pray genuinely to God every night before I went to bed, as my mother taught me. A small kid that age is going to be nothing but genuine.

As an adult, when I cried out to Jehovah as I was losing my faith, begging him for help, I guess his answer must have been "Go jump in the lake" or something like that. However I never heard anything like that. I put it down now to there being no god to hear my cries.

Thanks to Buddha's wisdom we know there are some things we can't avoid in this life such as ; poverty , old age , sickness , and death. Don't cry. God is way beyond all this suffering. You can be too. Let it go. God is the relief we have when we let it go. God doesn't suffer but is committed to be with us when we suffer. Just accept it and jump in a lake. In the summer of course to cool off.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 132 by onewithhim]

Are they? Sorry to say OWH, but I'm with OC on this. The only difference between him and myself is that he says 40 years, I say 28. There's a lot more to convincing an atheist skeptic there's a god calling than...well...saying simply there's a god calling.

In my own case, while growing up I never even knew there were other denominations of Christians. In my mind, as a child, there was just 'the Church' and that was it. So even in the situation where Jehovah is as OWH is painting him as...I do have to ask
1) Why allow information on the JW denomination to be so restricted?
2) Why wait until the late 1800s and the mid 1900s for the 'proper' denomination to be formed and the 'correct' translation of the Bible into English?

(1) Fair questions, rikuoamero. Though I don't understand why you think info on JWs is "so restricted." We have a website where all things are explained. Our records are never kept from the government, unlike other religions that don't let the authorities see their books, and how much money is taken in and where it goes is told to the congregation every month. Anyone else, even if not a JW, can be there to hear all that. Nothing is secret. Not like your other churches. www.jw.org
(2) Jesus indicated that he was going away for a long time. He also indicated that false Christians would rise up and try to deceive many, and that the truth would almost be choked out...until the "last days," or, "the harvest time" (the "end of the age"). (See Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43; Matthew 25:19.) God's time to set things straight would be these "last days." It would be then that the "false sons of the kingdom" (as per Matt.13:38) would be identified and those that were serving God would be able to be discerned from those who were not.

"And you people will again certainly see the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served Him." (Malachi 3:18)


Daniel indicated that "true knowledge" would become abundant "in the time of the end," and an angel told him that "the words are made secret and SEALED UP until the time of the end." (Daniel 12:4,9) So the time we are living in now is "the time of the end." True knowledge has become available. It was God's time to inspire righteous-hearted men to search deeply for the truth, and a particular man name Charles Taze Russell began that search. He could see that the churches didn't teach the truth about hell-fire and the Trinity and the immortal soul, and they didn't teach anything about the Ransom sacrifice of Christ. So he started a Bible-research group to answer questions about deeply important things.

It was perfect timing, because mankind was just inventing things like electric lights, motor vehicles, the telephone, etc., and all this would aid the preaching of the truth about God's Kingdom. (Matt.24:14)


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[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 140 by onewithhim]

You say that you used many TITLES, but never His name.

As one who was in OC's shoes, so what? Why would God be such a stickler that apparently we HAVE to say the name? Nevermind that I was told (OC probably was as well, I wouldn't be surprised) that people praying like we did (i.e. not necessarily saying Jehovah) were having their prayers answered in some fashion.

Wouldn't a person who is talking to ANYONE use that one's personal name? I think you would. So why not God?

If I send a letter addressed to say the President of the United States, it will eventually arrive at the desk of Donald Trump, even if I don't write his name on the envelope or at all in the actual letter.
Given that OC and I were praying to who we believed to be the one true God, and there can only be the one personage filling that title, our thought would have been that God would have known who we meant. In our minds, we were praying to the God who saved the Hebrews from slavery at the hands of the Egyptians; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God of Noah; the God who sent his only begotten Son and who raised him from the dead.
It's not like we were praying to some other imagined god entity at all. It's not like we got the God of the Bible confused with Zeus or Thor or what-have-you.

And I think it is really important that we appreciate just who God really is. If God is not a three-faced God but is just one Person, how can we figure that praying to a trinity of Gods is OK?

What if he actually is a trinity? I can ask Trinitarians and they can pull Scripture to support their position.

The Bible indicates that He is one individual.

The Bible says a great many things, some of them contradictory or unclear.

Even Jesus said that the Father was an individual and He deserved all the glory and the worship, as God Almighty. Jesus NEVER claimed to be God,

While I myself don't believe them now, there are verses that can be interpreted to mean that the Trinity is true. I have no idea if it is or not.
OWH, since you're the one promoting Isaiah as predicting Jesus, what about Isaiah Chapter 9?
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
I had JW talking to me earlier on today (or was it yesterday?) in the Isaiah thread about how Isaiah does predict Jesus. Well...we have Isaiah supposedly predicting that Jesus is to be called Mighty God.
Or Isaiah 43?
“You are My witnesses,� says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.�

and there has been enough discussion on these threads to confirm that, if you have been following any of them.

Ah so in your eyes, discussion on this topic is over? There's nothing more to be said? It's what the JWs teach that is true, end of story?

[onewithhim]

Yes you did say that you feel that God would never use Jehovah's Witnesses to talk to you.

Please show me where I said that. I suspect you have taken it out of context or are deliberately misrepresenting me.

And don't other churches ALSO claim to be the true church? It's my impression that every other church does say that.

Clearly you haven't been to many churches outside of JW. That may explain why you believe that Christians in other churches don't pray to Jehovah.

The more extreme churches tend to shun others, but you'll find that most mainstream Christian churches are not that exclusive. I have never actually been part of an exclusive church. All Christians have been welcomed. They even do combined activities with other churches some times. They even advertise activities happening at other churches. No, the type of extremity you are looking for does not happen in the average church. It tend to happen only in cults.

Most churches these days don't even seem to brand themselves as a particular denomination, because they want to include all Christians. Even Jehovah's witnesses would be welcomed in the churches I've belonged to.

God is no petty being.

No he's not. He would not brand people who get a few doctrines wrong as false Christians. He would not ignore someone because they referred to him as Jesus or because they didn't know his real name was Jehovah.

He knows if you are praying to Him

Exactly! Whether you are bowing down in front of an idol or not... whether you are calling him Jesus or not, he knows EXACTLY who you are intending on praying to.

, and if you're praying to His Son---even after His Son told you to pray only to OUR FATHER---He knows you are not praying to HIM, Jehovah.

See there's the pedantic version of god you are illustrating. When a person prays to Jesus they are INTENDING on praying to Jehovah. Even if they are doing the wrong thing, they are still INTENDING on praying to Jehovah. Of course you can ignore intentions if you like. Jehovah does not. He examines our intentions, as I have pointed out to you with actual scripture - Jehovah's supposed word. Do you want me to post those scriptures again?

Why ignore those scriptures? Are you really that determine to brand other Christians as false Christians? As worshipers of false gods?

Christians outside of the JWs pray to Jesus all the time and Jesus answers their prayers and blesses them big time. (or so they claim). So clearly it matters not to Jehovah whether they refer to him as Jesus or not. They also don't even have to use the name Jehovah. Jehovah knows their intentions and he answers their prayers anyway and heaps blessings upon them anyway.

I will go back and find where you said those things that you deny saying. And, for the record, I was baptized into the Methodist Church, went there for years until I was a teenager, then we went to a Southern Baptist Church. We were there for a number of years and then switched to non-denominational, fundamentalist, "born-again" independent churches. As I entered my early twenties I delved into everything. I went to Episcopal churches, Christian Science, Ba'hai, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Lutheran and Mormon. I even got into the Occult and had seances, read Tarot cards, and consulted spirit mediums. I was married to two Catholics. I looked at everything I could, to try and find Truth.

I do not ignore the scriptures you post. Apparently you ignore the ones that are in the Bible about Jehovah not sharing his glory with any other gods or idols, and that would include his Son, Jesus Christ. Glory as God Almighty goes only to Jehovah.

"Jehovah thy God thou dost fear, and Him thou dost serve, and by His name thou dost swear; ye do not go after other gods, of the gods of the peoples who are round about you." (Deuteronomy 6:13; Deut.10:20 Young's Literal Translation) Jesus quoted this at Luke 4:8 to the Devil.

Jesus said, "I do not seek my own glory; there is one who is seeking and judging....If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who is glorifying me, of whom ye say he is your God." (John 8:50,54, Young's)


"You---you have been shown, so as to know that Jehovah is the true God; there is no other besides Him." (Deut.4:35)


"I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images." (Isaiah 42:8)




It looks to me like Jehovah thinks his name is important, and he doesn't want there to be any graven images or idols between himself and you.

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[onewithhim]

If you go back over your recent posts you will see that you said that God knows that everyone praying to their idols is praying TO HIM. By saying that, you are agreeing with the use of idols in prayer & worship.

You are completely misrepresenting what I said. I never said they were praying to idols. I said they were praying to HIM. Unless of course they belong to a completely different religion where Jehovah is not the main focus.

I have never said that it's ok to worship or pray to idols. The bible is dead against that. Jehovah is dead against that. However, when say a Catholic bows down in front of a cross or an effigy of Jesus, they are not actually praying to that lump of wood. In their hearts they are praying to Jehovah. Their intent is that they are paying to Jehovah. Not the actual idol. Is that so difficult to grasp?

Likewise if a person prays to Jesus, they're not praying to an idol. They are praying to Jehovah. That is what they are intending.

Regarding praying to idols.....You said in your Post #121: "Even Catholics who may kneel in front of a wooden cross or effigy of Jesus aren't guilty of idol worship either. In their minds they are praying to Jehovah."

Then why do they make the idols at all? God said "DON'T MAKE THEM" didn't he? He didn't say, "You can make them as long as you pray to ME." He said, "You must not MAKE anything into an image," to use in worship.

So you are dead wrong, IMHO.



You also stated in your Post #111 that you would never have considered speaking to a JW as someone who God sent to talk to you. You said, "Why would I ever take a JW as a spokesperson from God? That wouldn't make any sense at all, especially when I saw them as belonging to a cult. That would hardly be considered God trying to put me straight."

So you DID reject JWs as any viable attempt on God's part to reach out to you.


Your Post #122: "You also portray God as a petty being who is not able to decipher that when I am praying to Jesus I'm actually praying to Him. That also doesn't line up with Scripture."

I ask: What Scripture are you reading? Tell me. The Scripture I have read shows Jesus teaching us WHOM TO PRAY TO. Did he say, "Pray to whomever...it doesn't matter because God knows that you mean to pray to Him"? I don't remember that being in any Scripture I have read. In fact Jesus taught us to pray TO THE FATHER (Matt.6:9) and no one else.

I guess you are seeing Scripture that I have never seen before. If you can't cite Scripture that says that it's OK to use idols in worship as long as you're praying to someone else, or Scripture that says that Jesus is equal in authority to Jehovah, or Scripture that shows that someone else is higher in authority than Jehovah, then I will have no further comment on this subject.



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[onewithhim]

Yes you did say that you feel that God would never use Jehovah's Witnesses to talk to you.

Please show me where I said that. I suspect you have taken it out of context or are deliberately misrepresenting me.

I am showing where you said that: POST #111

I didn't take it out of context nor did I "deliberately misrepresent you."


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[onewithhim]

If you were addressing Jehovah (the God of the Bible), then I'm sure He heard you. Just maybe He answered you but you didn't accept that answer when it came. Is that possible?

Well I was first 7 years old when I gave my life to God. I can't remember anything about it, but I know I would have been completely genuine. I'm sure Jehovah would have welcomed me with opened arms. Even before that I used to pray genuinely to God every night before I went to bed, as my mother taught me. A small kid that age is going to be nothing but genuine.

As an adult, when I cried out to Jehovah as I was losing my faith, begging him for help, I guess his answer must have been "Go jump in the lake" or something like that. However I never heard anything like that. I put it down now to there being no god to hear my cries.

Thanks to Buddha's wisdom we know there are some things we can't avoid in this life such as ; poverty , old age , sickness , and death. Don't cry. God is way beyond all this suffering. You can be too. Let it go. God is the relief we have when we let it go. God doesn't suffer but is committed to be with us when we suffer. Just accept it and jump in a lake. In the summer of course to cool off.

Buddha's wisdom doesn't stack up to anything compared to Christ's. And don't tell me that Buddhists don't believe in some kind of hell-fire. Who is that for? Wouldn't it be for the wicked who want to be bad? True Christians don't believe in hell-fire, but people on this forum can't stand the adulation of Jehovah or Jesus because....why? Because Jehovah promises to destroy the wicked? Do you pass Jesus off as irrelevant because he says that he will come to put the wicked out of existence? You like Buddha because he was so peaceful? He says "suffer" and he will be with you, right? No promises of any relief? Jehovah promises relief.

Peaceful Buddha? I'm looking at a Buddhist scroll from Japan depicting torments in "hell." Really gross. Wish I could post it. Yet the Bible doesn't teach those torments in "hell," no matter what apostate churches have taught for 1900 years. So why cast away Jesus and his teachings, and present Buddha's stuff as superior?

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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 140 by onewithhim]

You say that you used many TITLES, but never His name.

As one who was in OC's shoes, so what? Why would God be such a stickler that apparently we HAVE to say the name? Nevermind that I was told (OC probably was as well, I wouldn't be surprised) that people praying like we did (i.e. not necessarily saying Jehovah) were having their prayers answered in some fashion.

Wouldn't a person who is talking to ANYONE use that one's personal name? I think you would. So why not God?

If I send a letter addressed to say the President of the United States, it will eventually arrive at the desk of Donald Trump, even if I don't write his name on the envelope or at all in the actual letter.
Given that OC and I were praying to who we believed to be the one true God, and there can only be the one personage filling that title, our thought would have been that God would have known who we meant. In our minds, we were praying to the God who saved the Hebrews from slavery at the hands of the Egyptians; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God of Noah; the God who sent his only begotten Son and who raised him from the dead.
It's not like we were praying to some other imagined god entity at all. It's not like we got the God of the Bible confused with Zeus or Thor or what-have-you.

I think that God IS a stickler for using His actual name. In fact He indicated as much to Moses:

"Yes, tell them, 'Jehovah, the God of your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my eternal name, to be used throughout all generations." (Exodus 3:15, Living Bible)


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[onewithhim]

What if he actually is a trinity? I can ask Trinitarians and they can pull Scripture to support their position.

The Bible indicates that He is one individual.

The Bible says a great many things, some of them contradictory or unclear.

Even Jesus said that the Father was an individual and He deserved all the glory and the worship, as God Almighty. Jesus NEVER claimed to be God,

While I myself don't believe them now, there are verses that can be interpreted to mean that the Trinity is true. I have no idea if it is or not.
OWH, since you're the one promoting Isaiah as predicting Jesus, what about Isaiah Chapter 9?
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
I had JW talking to me earlier on today (or was it yesterday?) in the Isaiah thread about how Isaiah does predict Jesus. Well...we have Isaiah supposedly predicting that Jesus is to be called Mighty God.
Or Isaiah 43?
“You are My witnesses,� says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.�

and there has been enough discussion on these threads to confirm that, if you have been following any of them.

Ah so in your eyes, discussion on this topic is over? There's nothing more to be said? It's what the JWs teach that is true, end of story?

Have you actually taken a look at what non-trinitarians have said on these threads? Have you looked at the evidence that we who believe in one God have presented that shoots down all of the bleatings coming out of goat-like mouths that try to convince people that God is three persons? That is polytheism, by the way.

You object to monotheistic teaching by saying that Isaiah speaks of the Messiah as "Mighty God." Actually there are no capital letters in Hebrew, so it would be "mighty god." Anyway, this is translated from "EL GIBBOHR," and is quite different from "EL SHADDAI," which means "almighty god." Jesus is never referred to as "El Shaddai," only "El Gibbohr." Jehovah is the only one in Scripture called "El Shaddai."

Do you still have confusion as to why Jesus would be called a god? Hasn't it been brought to everybody's attention by now that "god" simply means a powerful, important individual? Human judges, angels, kings, governors and even the Devil ---they are all called "gods" in Scripture.

Scripture is careful, though, to call only ONE "god" the ALMIGHTY GOD who is over all. The Almighty God is Jehovah. Jesus, God's Son, is a mighty god.


(I don't know what your point is about Isaiah 43.)

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 149 by onewithhim]

Goat like mouths? Point of order owh lest ye attract the wrath of the mods.
I'd like for you to ask yourself why you insulted those who believe in the trinity. In case you're wondering no my goal is not to convince you of the trinity. Just that what you think is ironclad is anything but.

Now you may or may not have a point regarding the translation of mighty god...but think about it. How many English speaking Christians are there who are fluent in Hebrew? Your average English Christian would read that bit about mighty god in his bible and I wouldn't blame the person for thinking this means Jesus is God.
As for Isaiah 43...its God saying that there is no saviour apart from him. What is Jesus supposed to be if not our saviour?

Long and short of it is owh....if the trinity isn't real, then God is doing a rather poor job of getting the word out about that. You JWs are just one denomination out of many and relatively small at that.