Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 145 by onewithhim]



[center]Icons vs Graven Imagery and False Idols[/center]

Then why do they make the idols at all? God said "DON'T MAKE THEM" didn't he? He didn't say, "You can make them as long as you pray to ME." He said, "You must not MAKE anything into an image," to use in worship.

Icons are not graven images.


"Look at Exodus 26:1. In God’s commands to Moses concerning the taber­nacle, given just a few chapters after the giving of the Ten Commandments, is this instruction: “Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains woven of fine linen thread, and blue and purple and scarlet yarn; with artistic designs of cherubim you shall weave them.�"

http://www.antiochian.org/content/no-gr ... proper-use

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 149 by onewithhim]


[center]

The word "God" defined.. in a quite remarkable way for a Christian.[/center]

Do you still have confusion as to why Jesus would be called a god? Hasn't it been brought to everybody's attention by now that "god" simply means a powerful, important individual?

Wait, WHAT?
I thought you were a theist.

You believe in a very important powerful individual, like Donald Trump?
Not something supernatural?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 142 by onewithhim]

(1) Fair questions, rikuoamero. Though I don't understand why you think info on JWs is "so restricted."

During the 90s, it was at least in my case. As I said in the comment you replied to there, I wasn't even aware that there were other denominations. I thought everyone was a Christian (apart from the Jews, I sorta knew they were still around, but I do remember being confused seeing the parents in the Rugrats cartoon celebrating Passover: what were they doing? I remember asking myself; that wasn't anything I as a Christian celebrated) and that everyone believed the same things.
Even apart from myself, your average Christian non-JW probably has never heard of the Jehovah's Witnesses. So in the situation where you guys actually ARE the 'correct' denomination, I do have to ask: why is God seemingly allright with the vast majority of people, Christian or otherwise, living their lives basically unaware of this?

Anyone else, even if not a JW, can be there to hear all that. Nothing is secret. Not like your other churches.

I am aware of allegations against the Watchtower, of sexual abuse allegations not being investigated hand in hand with civil secular authorities.
I honestly do not believe that any Christian denomination is squeaky clean, yours or Roman Catholicism or whoever.

Jesus indicated that he was going away for a long time.

According to Matthew, some of those with him would still be alive upon his return.
Oh what's that I see you doing? I see you quoting Matthew in this response to me? Curious...

He also indicated that false Christians would rise up and try to deceive many, and that the truth would almost be choked out

Am I or anyone else supposed to believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT these false Christians?

"And you people will again certainly see the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served Him." (Malachi 3:18)


Daniel indicated that "true knowledge" would become abundant "in the time of the end," and an angel told him that "the words are made secret and SEALED UP until the time of the end." (Daniel 12:4,9) So the time we are living in now is "the time of the end." True knowledge has become available.

Of course, there is the possibility that you yourself are part of the false Christians, and that everything you say to me here (and by extension, our readers who almost certainly count Christians among their number) is false, whether knowingly or unknowingly on your part.

It was God's time to inspire righteous-hearted men to search deeply for the truth,

So he allows for mankind to have what is in your eyes a distorted picture of Christianity for 1800 odd years.
I question the why of that, if what you say is true.

He could see that the churches didn't teach the truth about hell-fire and the Trinity and the immortal soul, and they didn't teach anything about the Ransom sacrifice of Christ.

Correction - What Russell thought was the truth. You may believe Russell, but I don't.
Also, you are simply dead wrong about what the churches taught about Christ. I may no longer remember the exact wording of what I learned as a child in my classes, but I do remember learning that Jesus Christ died on the cross and that this was to save humanity in some fashion (again, exactly how and why I cannot remember).

It was perfect timing, because mankind was just inventing things like electric lights, motor vehicles, the telephone, etc., and all this would aid the preaching of the truth about God's Kingdom.

As opposed to the invention of the printing press several centuries earlier, no that wouldn't have helped at all...

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 148 by onewithhim]

"Yes, tell them, 'Jehovah, the God of your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my eternal name, to be used throughout all generations."

I honestly cannot remember whether or not as a child I knew the name "Jehovah". More than likely, I would have been taught to say "Lord Jesus", "Lord God", "God the Father", "Holy God" "God Almighty" etc etc. Also, I didn't even lay hands on a bible until my teens.
Even if what you say is true, I do have to ask...why is your god such a stickler? Look at what has happened thanks to him being so stuckup about the usage of his name. Apparently, the reason my prayers were never answered is because (according to you) I probably didn't say the name "Jehovah". Over time, I took that to mean there isn't anyone there to answer prayer. It is in my eyes the most reasonable explanation. So now I'm an atheist. If only the god you speak of had responded in some fashion! If only he had said "Hey Rikuo...I'll let you off this once, but in the future, when you pray to me, I want you to use my name, as I indicated in these Bible passages".
But no. Apparently, your God would rather I come to the 'wrong' conclusion, than respond and correct me.

You object to monotheistic teaching by saying that Isaiah speaks of the Messiah as "Mighty God." Actually there are no capital letters in Hebrew, so it would be "mighty god." Anyway, this is translated from "EL GIBBOHR," and is quite different from "EL SHADDAI," which means "almighty god." Jesus is never referred to as "El Shaddai," only "El Gibbohr." Jehovah is the only one in Scripture called "El Shaddai."

All of this is meaningless to those people who are like me, who only speak and read English. English speakers who believe in the Trinity would be reading their English language Bibles, and probably would see verses such as the above, where Jesus is called "Mighty God" and think to themselves "Gee, that must mean Jesus...well...is God!"
And no, I am NOT objecting to montheistic teaching. I am not advocating for polytheism. I'm an atheist, remember? I don't believe gods exist. I'm merely pointing out that you, the guy who rejects Trinity teachings, and other people who accept Trinity teachings, pull from the exact same book when making your cases.
I have no idea which of you guys is correct (if either, you could both be wrong, and there is no god at all).

Hasn't it been brought to everybody's attention by now that "god" simply means a powerful, important individual?

Why would your capital G God, who is supposedly very wise, not realise that this isn't really a thing in the English language? That there is no real difference between small g god and big G God, in English?
The closest we get is the term demi-god.
I suppose if I were to accuse YOU of advocating polytheism, you'd deny the charge, and come up with an explanation for why what you say just there isn't advocating for the existence of multiple gods/Gods?

I think its time you did some soul searching, and ask yourself (not me, yourself) why you seem so...I apologize if this seems insulting, but so...puffed up with this sense of superiority. You are so sure that you have the 'correct' denomination of Christianity, the correct teachings, that you are verbally abusive towards others who are not part of your group (remember that comment you made earlier about the 'bleatings coming out of goat-like mouths that try to convince people that God is three persons?').
To put it simply...you are not at all acting like the Christ I was taught about as a child. The Christ I learned about ate with people who sinned, and who didn't understand. He didn't put his nose up at those who apparently don't understand God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 149 by onewithhim]

Goat like mouths? Point of order owh lest ye attract the wrath of the mods.
I'd like for you to ask yourself why you insulted those who believe in the trinity. In case you're wondering no my goal is not to convince you of the trinity. Just that what you think is ironclad is anything but.

Now you may or may not have a point regarding the translation of mighty god...but think about it. How many English speaking Christians are there who are fluent in Hebrew? Your average English Christian would read that bit about mighty god in his bible and I wouldn't blame the person for thinking this means Jesus is God.
As for Isaiah 43...its God saying that there is no saviour apart from him. What is Jesus supposed to be if not our saviour?

Long and short of it is owh....if the trinity isn't real, then God is doing a rather poor job of getting the word out about that. You JWs are just one denomination out of many and relatively small at that.

I couldn't help myself. I've got a long way to go to really imitate the Lord Jesus, though, when I think about it, he did call people, for instance, "that old fox," and "hypocrites," "white-washed graves," "sons of snakes," etc.

I truly, deeply, believe that it IS ironclad that the doctrine of the Trinity is false. I have presented my arguments on these threads for years, and NO ONE has bothered to give a reply to what I posted, in a meaningful way. They just have said "oh you're wrong" and quoted the same old worn-out ambiguous verses, without explaining to me why the verses that I cited were off-base. Would you? Just explain why the following verses DO NOT show that Jesus is subordinate to the Father:

(1) John 5:19...."The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner." Isn't he saying that the Son learns from the Father? If he was God, he wouldn't need to learn anything.

(2) John 6:38...."I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." Apparently the Father's will trumps Jesus' own.

(3) John 12:49...."I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." If Jesus was God, would he need to take orders from anyone?

(4) John 14:28...."The Father is greater than I am." (It should be noted that it was not just when Jesus was on Earth that this was the case; even after he returned to heaven "the head of Christ is God"---I Corinth.11:3.)

(5) John 17:3...."This is eternal life, that they may know You [the Father], the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

(6) John 20:17b...."I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God."



I await your response.

[onewithhim]

As for Isaiah 43...its God saying that there is no saviour apart from him. What is Jesus supposed to be if not our saviour?

God, Jehovah, states a simple, basic truth---all salvation and everything else that's good comes from Him. It was His idea to send Jesus to save mankind, and He instructed Jesus specifically as to what to do, as Jesus himself said. Jehovah is the SOURCE of the plan of salvation, therefore He can say that there is no saviour apart from Him. All of the power and authority that Jesus had was GIVEN to him by the Father, Jehovah. (Matt.28:18) Without Jehovah, Jesus would have no power.

To sum it up: Jesus is the means by which Jehovah saves.


.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 145 by onewithhim]



[center]Icons vs Graven Imagery and False Idols[/center]

Then why do they make the idols at all? God said "DON'T MAKE THEM" didn't he? He didn't say, "You can make them as long as you pray to ME." He said, "You must not MAKE anything into an image," to use in worship.

Icons are not graven images.


"Look at Exodus 26:1. In God’s commands to Moses concerning the taber­nacle, given just a few chapters after the giving of the Ten Commandments, is this instruction: “Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains woven of fine linen thread, and blue and purple and scarlet yarn; with artistic designs of cherubim you shall weave them.�"

http://www.antiochian.org/content/no-gr ... proper-use

Blast, do you always have to play the devil's advocate? I have a suspicion that you can clearly see that icons are indeed "graven images." They are pictures MADE to be used in worship.

Where in the Scriptures did God say to speak to the designs of the cherubim and He would be listening?

I don't recall any place that people were allowed to make pictures of this person or that person and then use them in worship & prayer.






(IDOL: "An image or anything used as an object of worship in place of the true God."

IDOLATRY: "Strictly speaking, denotes the worship of deity in a visible form, whether the images to which homage is paid are symbolical representations of the true God or of the false divinities which have been made the objects of worship in His stead.")

Smith's Bible Dictionary, William Smith, L.L.D. (1813-1893)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 149 by onewithhim]


[center]

The word "God" defined.. in a quite remarkable way for a Christian.[/center]

Do you still have confusion as to why Jesus would be called a god? Hasn't it been brought to everybody's attention by now that "god" simply means a powerful, important individual?

Wait, WHAT?
I thought you were a theist.

You believe in a very important powerful individual, like Donald Trump?
Not something supernatural?

I don't believe that Donald Trump is the one true God, just like I don't believe that the angel Gabriel is the one true God. But they are both "gods" in the way that people in Jesus' day thought about prestigious persons.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 142 by onewithhim]

(1) Fair questions, rikuoamero. Though I don't understand why you think info on JWs is "so restricted."

During the 90s, it was at least in my case. As I said in the comment you replied to there, I wasn't even aware that there were other denominations. I thought everyone was a Christian (apart from the Jews, I sorta knew they were still around, but I do remember being confused seeing the parents in the Rugrats cartoon celebrating Passover: what were they doing? I remember asking myself; that wasn't anything I as a Christian celebrated) and that everyone believed the same things.
Even apart from myself, your average Christian non-JW probably has never heard of the Jehovah's Witnesses. So in the situation where you guys actually ARE the 'correct' denomination, I do have to ask: why is God seemingly allright with the vast majority of people, Christian or otherwise, living their lives basically unaware of this?

IMHO, and from what I have read in the Bible, God is NOT alright with the majority of people living their lives ignorant of Jehovah's Witnesses and what they teach. Just because the majority of people are ignorant and worship other gods besides Jehovah, that doesn't mean that He is OK with that. Didn't Jesus himself indicate that the majority of people would be on the "broad road leading to destruction," and the minority---"FEW"---would be on the road leading to life? (Matthew 7:13,14)

[onewithhim]

I am aware of allegations against the Watchtower, of sexual abuse allegations not being investigated hand in hand with civil secular authorities.
I honestly do not believe that any Christian denomination is squeaky clean, yours or Roman Catholicism or whoever.

Jesus indicated that he was going away for a long time.

According to Matthew, some of those with him would still be alive upon his return.
Oh what's that I see you doing? I see you quoting Matthew in this response to me? Curious...

He also indicated that false Christians would rise up and try to deceive many, and that the truth would almost be choked out

Am I or anyone else supposed to believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT these false Christians?

"And you people will again certainly see the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served Him." (Malachi 3:18)


Daniel indicated that "true knowledge" would become abundant "in the time of the end," and an angel told him that "the words are made secret and SEALED UP until the time of the end." (Daniel 12:4,9) So the time we are living in now is "the time of the end." True knowledge has become available.

Of course, there is the possibility that you yourself are part of the false Christians, and that everything you say to me here (and by extension, our readers who almost certainly count Christians among their number) is false, whether knowingly or unknowingly on your part.

It was God's time to inspire righteous-hearted men to search deeply for the truth,

So he allows for mankind to have what is in your eyes a distorted picture of Christianity for 1800 odd years.
I question the why of that, if what you say is true.

He could see that the churches didn't teach the truth about hell-fire and the Trinity and the immortal soul, and they didn't teach anything about the Ransom sacrifice of Christ.

Correction - What Russell thought was the truth. You may believe Russell, but I don't.
Also, you are simply dead wrong about what the churches taught about Christ. I may no longer remember the exact wording of what I learned as a child in my classes, but I do remember learning that Jesus Christ died on the cross and that this was to save humanity in some fashion (again, exactly how and why I cannot remember).

It was perfect timing, because mankind was just inventing things like electric lights, motor vehicles, the telephone, etc., and all this would aid the preaching of the truth about God's Kingdom.

As opposed to the invention of the printing press several centuries earlier, no that wouldn't have helped at all...

I believe that the congregations of JWs truly stick to Bible principles and take care of pedophile problems---not sending guilty ones to other venues, as the RCC and other organizations do. If someone is proven to be a pedophile, that one is disfellowshipped (unless he repents and stops the evil he was doing). Either way, the congregation will never allow that pedophile to be alone with children again, and he will never be allowed any responsibility in the congregation (like heading up a group going out for witnessing, or taking care of records, or giving talks, or anything).

Jesus never indicated that some people that were alive then would still be alive when he returned. He said at Matthew 16:28: "Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Did he mean that his Apostles would live over 2,000 years? Or did he mean that he would return soon after he spoke those words? NEITHER is correct.

Notice that immediately after he said that, he was transfigured before them---Peter, James and John, who he took up into a lofty mountain. (Matthew 17:1-9) His face shown as the sun and his garments became brilliant. That was what he meant by the Son of man "coming in his kingdom"---revealing to those Apostles a little bit of his kingdom glory, what he would be like someday in the future, living in heaven at the right hand of God, and, of course, coming again from there to address the big problems on Earth.

His parable at Matthew 25:19 shows that "the master of the slaves" (himself) would return after a long time. This shows to me that his return would not be immediate. His parables in the 13th chapter of Matthew also indicate that he would not return for a very long time. When he came back, the "harvest time" would have arrived---the "conclusion of a system of things," or, the "end of the age."

Yes, God allowed a major distortion of the truth to be carried on for over 1800 years. That is what the Scriptures attest to. The "weeds" of Matthew 13 would grow and practically choke out the "wheat" for a very long time.

However, I see that you have no interest in even attempting to see things from my point of view, so all I can do is wish you a good evening, and peace.