Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 160 by onewithhim]

However, I see that you have no interest in even attempting to see things from my point of view, so all I can do is wish you a good evening, and peace.

Far from it. Again, I have to say, I am pointing out that you, the person who rejects the Trinity, and those people over there who accept the Trinity, are pulling from the same book.
I, the person who is different to both of you, do not know which of you to believe.
Here's a verse a Trinity person can use, and reading it...I honestly don't see how you the non Trinity person can reinterpret it to say Jesus isn't God.
1 Timothy 3:14-16, from the NWT no less

I am writing you these things, though I am hoping to come to you shortly, 15 but in case I am delayed, so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in God’s household,+ which is the congregation of the living God, a pillar and support of the truth. 16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh,+ was declared righteous in spirit,+ appeared to angels,+ was preached about among nations,+ was believed upon in the world,+ was received up in glory.’

I have no stake in the game here, as to whether or not the Trinity is true. I don't care which it is, that is to say, I have no personal preference.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 87 by Claire Evans]



[center]The probability that the God Hypothesis is true[/center]

How can you tell 100% that God can't be true?

Nobody can.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  How true is the God hypothesis and how did you establish that probability?
  
  

____________

Then why do a lot of atheists say theists must stop believing in fairy tales if it cannot be ascertained that He isn't?

[Monta]

I couldn't help myself. I've got a long way to go to really imitate the Lord Jesus,

>>>Don't even try.

I truly, deeply, believe that it IS ironclad that the doctrine of the Trinity is false. I have presented my arguments on these threads for years, and NO ONE has bothered to give a reply to what I posted, in a meaningful way.

>>>You truly, deeply believe, so do we.
>>>Responding in a meaningful way will be acceptable only if it agrees with you imo.

(1) John 5:19...."The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner." Isn't he saying that the Son learns from the Father? If he was God, he wouldn't need to learn anything.

>>>No it does not say He is learning from the Father but rather that He does what the Father does.

(2) John 6:38...."I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." Apparently the Father's will trumps Jesus' own.

>>>Naturally.

(3) John 12:49...."I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." If Jesus was God, would he need to take orders from anyone?

>>Jesus functioned from the human, not the Divine. Human is lower than the Divine.

(4) John 14:28...."The Father is greater than I am." (It should be noted that it was not just when Jesus was on Earth that this was the case; even after he returned to heaven "the head of Christ is God"---I Corinth.11:3.)

>>What it is saying is the head of Christ is God; love is above truth.

(5) John 17:3...."This is eternal life, that they may know You [the Father], the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

>>>And Jesus Christ whom thou has sent'.
To know the Father is to know the Son, to know the Son is to know the Father, as Jesus said.

(6) John 20:17b...."I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God."

>>>Jesus spoke this from his Human; his full union with the Father evantuated after the Ascension.

I await your response.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 157 by onewithhim]

Blast, do you always have to play the devil's advocate?

It's not just a game.
I made what I thought was a pretty good rebuttal of your claim.

Sometimes, I just ask questions, and sometimes, I feel like posting a comment.
If you disagree with my comment, challenge me on it.

I have a suspicion that you can clearly see that icons are indeed "graven images." They are pictures MADE to be used in worship.

Are you calling me a liar?
I wrote exactly what I meant to write, onewithhim.

Where in the Scriptures did God say to speak to the designs of the cherubim and He would be listening?

I don't know if he ever listens.. but for whatever reason, he ordered people do make the icons.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 158 by onewithhim]

[center]

I like the term "Don the Con, but I didn't coin it.. too bad.[/center]

I don't believe that Donald Trump is the one true God, just like I don't believe that the angel Gabriel is the one true God. But they are both "gods" in the way that people in Jesus' day thought about prestigious persons.

People still think that way, I suppose.

Some people still present themselves as messengers of all kinds of gods and goddesses, and not just in that very metaphorical sense.

If the god you believe in is LIKE Don the Con, well, that's not saying much. I'd say hes the boss of all of those... inferior kinds of gods.

The one true con?
The one true don?

Not impressed.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 160 by onewithhim]

However, I see that you have no interest in even attempting to see things from my point of view, so all I can do is wish you a good evening, and peace.

Far from it. Again, I have to say, I am pointing out that you, the person who rejects the Trinity, and those people over there who accept the Trinity, are pulling from the same book.
I, the person who is different to both of you, do not know which of you to believe.
Here's a verse a Trinity person can use, and reading it...I honestly don't see how you the non Trinity person can reinterpret it to say Jesus isn't God.
1 Timothy 3:14-16, from the NWT no less

I am writing you these things, though I am hoping to come to you shortly, 15 but in case I am delayed, so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in God’s household,+ which is the congregation of the living God, a pillar and support of the truth. 16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh,+ was declared righteous in spirit,+ appeared to angels,+ was preached about among nations,+ was believed upon in the world,+ was received up in glory.’

I have no stake in the game here, as to whether or not the Trinity is true. I don't care which it is, that is to say, I have no personal preference.

IMHO, people such as yourself are not really carefully considering the verse in question. It says in ITimothy 3:14-16 that the sacred secret of godly devotion is great. It doesn't say that a secret about GOD is great. It goes on to refer to Christ, "made manifest in flesh," etc., but does not state or infer anywhere that Christ is God. How do you get that out of it?

Some versions of the Bible actually say "God was manifest in the flesh," but most scholars will tell you that "God" was inserted by some biased overly-enthusiastic-for-the-trinity scribe, and most of the versions I have looked at say "He" or the word "Who," which does not indicate that Christ is God.




.

[onewithhim]

(2) John 6:38...."I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." Apparently the Father's will trumps Jesus' own.

>>>Naturally.

(3) John 12:49...."I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." If Jesus was God, would he need to take orders from anyone?

>>Jesus functioned from the human, not the Divine. Human is lower than the Divine.

(4) John 14:28...."The Father is greater than I am." (It should be noted that it was not just when Jesus was on Earth that this was the case; even after he returned to heaven "the head of Christ is God"---I Corinth.11:3.)

>>What it is saying is the head of Christ is God; love is above truth.

(5) John 17:3...."This is eternal life, that they may know You [the Father], the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

>>>And Jesus Christ whom thou has sent'.
To know the Father is to know the Son, to know the Son is to know the Father, as Jesus said.

(6) John 20:17b...."I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God."

>>>Jesus spoke this from his Human; his full union with the Father evantuated after the Ascension.

I await your response.

[/quote]
For number (2) you said "naturally" to the fact that Jesus' will came after the Father's will. Doesn't that show that Jesus is subservient to the Father? Doesn't it show that they are NOT equal?

For number (3)....what does it mean that Jesus was functioning from the human and not the divine? Wouldn't he have gotten instructions from the Father BEFORE he came to the earth? He would've been still in heaven, so according to your thinking, he would've still been God, right? So if he was God, why would he need to be told how to do anything?

Number (4)....What kind of answer is that---"love is above truth"? The verses clearly show that the Father is greater than Christ, and it is that way, too, when Christ is in heaven with the Father. You have not given a reasonable answer to those verses, to prove Jesus is God. Care to try again?

Number (5)....You answer like the person who throws spaghetti against a wall to see if some of it will stick. The scripture said that Jesus called his Father THE ONLY TRUE GOD. You ignored that and talked about something else. Why would Jesus say that if he was God also?

Number (6)....Your answer wasn't clear. Were you saying that Jesus became equal again with the Father after he ascended back to heaven? How can this be true when Jesus, telling the Apostle John things to write down (for the book of Revelation), when he was already back in heaven, said the following?

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY GOD, and my new name." (Revelation 3:12, NASB)

It looks like Jesus has a God even when he is in heaven. God doesn't have a God.


Try again?


[/u][/b]

[OnceConvinced]

But WERE you addressing Jehovah?

Of course I was. But does it matter if I use the name Jehovah? Why would Jehovah be so picky? If he knows our hearts and intents he knows who we are talking to. If we say "God" or "Jesus" or "Lord" or "Yahweh", he knows, just like I know that when people mess up my surname they are talking to me or when they use my nickname (which I don't like) they are talking to me.

Are you saying that Jehovah has no clue when someone is addressing him using a different name?

You say that you used many TITLES, but never His name. Wouldn't a person who is talking to ANYONE use that one's personal name? I think you would. So why not God?

I have been called many names in the past but I know full well that it is me they are referring to.

Is your God as petty as a human? Is he as clueless as a human?

Of course not. Jehovah is so much bigger than that. He knows our hearts and our intents. Why would a god care if you called him a different name if it's him you are tying to converse with?

Why would Jehovah mind if you got his name wrong? He's a god, not an overly-sensitive human being.

The way you're talking I should reject all names that aren't my given name. Even when my partner calls me "darling" I should ignore her or refuse to have anything to do with her because she didn't call me by my proper name.

And I think it is really important that we appreciate just who God really is.

Yes exactly and his name is very unimportant. In the bible he is referred to under many names. Jehovah is simply just one of them.

His name is surely the least important thing?

If God is not a three-faced God but is just one Person, how can we figure that praying to a trinity of Gods is OK?

I don't think you really grasp what the trinity is. It's not three different gods. It's one god. When you pray to one you are praying to Jehovah. You don't have to understand this, Onewithhim. All that matters is that Jehovah understands.

The Bible indicates that He is one individual. p

Yes and the trinity is one individual. It's just three aspects of that one individual. You pray to one you pray to the entire thing.

Even Jesus said that the Father was an individual and He deserved all the glory and the worship, as God Almighty. Jesus NEVER claimed to be God, and there has been enough discussion on these threads to confirm that, if you have been following any of them.

Jesus also understood that it's the intentions of the person that counts. Jesus also had many different names attributed to him in the bible. Would he be upset if you got his name wrong? Would he ignore you if you did?

I just can't see the Jehovah of the bible being as petty as what you are saying and if that's the JW perspective on Jehovah, then it's one I reject. From what I can see in the bible, Jehovah is not as rigid as what you guys seem to be suggesting.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 140 by onewithhim]

You say that you used many TITLES, but never His name.

As one who was in OC's shoes, so what? Why would God be such a stickler that apparently we HAVE to say the name? Nevermind that I was told (OC probably was as well, I wouldn't be surprised) that people praying like we did (i.e. not necessarily saying Jehovah) were having their prayers answered in some fashion.

Indeed. From what I was hearing and still do, there are Christians all over the place having Jehovah answer their prayers even though they didn't call him Jehovah. I used to believe he answered my prayers too.

One thing that didn't make any sense to me that Onewithhim said earlier, was when she suggested that many Christians don't even know who Jehovah is. I of course replied, because they were never taught that Jehovah was another name for God. Most Christians these days know him as God. Some Christians refer to him as Father, even lord. However if you were to point out to them that Jehovah is the god of the bible, of course they're gonna know who you were talking about.

I see Jehovah now as an old-fashioned name for God just as St Nicholas is an old-fashioned name for Santa Claus.

As a young Christian I heard the name Jehovah used all the time. I knew full well that it was another name for God. In fact we used to sing a song called 'Jehovah Jirah, my provider, his grace is sufficient for thee". I don't know how any Christian in the 70s could no know who Jehovah was and that it was another name for God.

It seems though as the 80s arrived and then onwards, the name Jehovah just started to get used less and less. People just called him God, or Lord, or Jesus.

It seems to me that it's just a matter of going with the easier name. Why refer to him as Jehovah when you can just call him God?

It's not like we were praying to some other imagined god entity at all. It's not like we got the God of the Bible confused with Zeus or Thor or what-have-you.

Exactly. As long as we're not intending on praying to some false god... some other god other than Jehovah I don't see what the problem is. I doubt Jehovah would either. Jehovah would have to be a very sensitive human otherwise.

Ah so in your eyes, discussion on this topic is over? There's nothing more to be said? It's what the JWs teach that is true, end of story?

I really wish Otseng had established this in his list of rules for this site. Jehovah's Witness's beliefs trump all else.

[OnceConvinced]

I do not ignore the scriptures you post. Apparently you ignore the ones that are in the Bible about Jehovah not sharing his glory with any other gods or idols, and that would include his Son, Jesus Christ. Glory as God Almighty goes only to Jehovah.

I am well aware of what the bible says on that matter. However praying to Jesus is not the same as praying to other gods or idols UNLESS your intention is only to pray to Jesus. However if you pray to Jesus believing him to be part of the trinity (as I did and most Christians do), then he is not an idol or a false god. He is JEHOVAH.

"Jehovah thy God thou dost fear, and Him thou dost serve, and by His name thou dost swear; ye do not go after other gods, of the gods of the peoples who are round about you." (Deuteronomy 6:13; Deut.10:20 Young's Literal Translation) Jesus quoted this at Luke 4:8 to the Devil.

Jesus said, "I do not seek my own glory; there is one who is seeking and judging....If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who is glorifying me, of whom ye say he is your God." (John 8:50,54, Young's)

"You---you have been shown, so as to know that Jehovah is the true God; there is no other besides Him." (Deut.4:35)

"I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images." (Isaiah 42:8)

For Christians who believe in the trinity, none of these scriptures are a problem, because when they pray to Jesus, they are intending on praying to Jehovah. They are not intending on praying to any other god but him.

It looks to me like Jehovah thinks his name is important, and he doesn't want there to be any graven images or idols between himself and you.
.

Err no, its you that thinks his name is important. Also bear in mind that most respected translations do not use the name "Jehovah". They use "God".

All those scriptures are saying is don't pray to any other gods. Christians praying to Jesus are not praying to any other god but Jehovah. I don't know how to make that any clearer.

When someone is praying to Jesus, they are not worshiping graven images or idols. They are worshipping Jehovah.

This should not be difficult to grasp.