Jehovah's Witnesses...

[Elijah John]

This question is specifically for Jehovah's Witnesses, but anyone is welcome to chime in.

As an organization who understands and appreciates the name of God, Father Jehovah, why regard Paul at all? Someone who places Jesus name above all, even above the name of Father Jehovah?

The Watchtower Society proclaims the name of the LORD Jehovah, Paul? Never. Unless I am missing something.

He seems to equate "the Lord" with "Christ", not YHVH.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name

Phillippians 2.9

For debate...has Paul put Jesus name above every other name including YHVH's?

If it was God and not Paul who did this, where does YHVH say He would ever do this, putting the Messiah's name above His own?

If not, why doesn't Paul proclaim YHVH's name, only Jesus?

If Paul has put Jesus name above all, why should anyone who loves YHVH consider Paul's writings "Sacred Scripture"?

[Elijah John]

Within the congregation the emphasis shifts from "Is Jehovah the True God" to "How to praise and honor the true God"

One teaches "praise and honor of the True God" by teaching folks to honor and love God by name and to teach the ethic of love.

The latter Paul does, throughout his letters. The former? Not so much.

Paul could learn from King David's example how to "praise and honor the true God" .

And once again, for Paul "to live is Christ". "Christ" is Paul's end all, and be all, arguably at the expense of YHVH.

The words of Thomas Paine can be adapted here. Paine said that in Christianity, " instead of God, a man is preached".

Well, with Paul, instead of YHVH, Christ is preached.

May be a bit of an overstatement, but not much of one.

Paul says Jesus name is "above every other", and does not make the disclaimer, "except of course, Jehovah's own name.

Question for you JW, Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body.

As someone who does not believe that Jesus is God, (and here we agree) how is OK to mix and match "Christ" with the Holy Spirit?

[JehovahsWitness]

Question for you JW, Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body.

As someone who does not believe that Jesus is God, (and here we agree) how is OK to mix and match "Christ" with the Holy Spirit?

I don't believe Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body, neither do I believe that Paul mixes and matches "Christ" with holy spirit so I'm afraid I cannot help you with that.

Maybe if you can find someone that agrees with the premise you present you will be able to get some clarificaiton on these points.

Sorry,

JW

[Elijah John]

Question for you JW, Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body.

As someone who does not believe that Jesus is God, (and here we agree) how is OK to mix and match "Christ" with the Holy Spirit?

I don't believe Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body, neither do I believe that Paul mixes and matches "Christ" with holy spirit so I'm afraid I cannot help you with that.

Maybe if you can find someone that agrees with the premise you present you will be able to get some clarificaiton on these points.

Sorry,

JW

No need to apologize because here is an example:

Paul also wrote: Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love... and Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
etc.

(bold my emphasis for contrast)

Intentional or not, Ted gives us the answer, in this post # 8 from the "What is the difference between the risen Christ and the Holy Spirit" topic.

Note the mix and match usage by Paul. And I'm sure there are other examples.

So, how would a JW come to terms with someone "dwelling in one's heart" who is not God?

How would it sound if one said "so that Michael the Archangel may dwell in your hearts through faith". A bit like idolatry, wouldn't it?

Not saying that JW's teaching of Jesus being MtA, is idolatry, but only saying that having anyone but Jehovah God in this context, in the Temple of one's heart, sounds dangerously close to idolatry.

Please don't argue that having any beloved human in one's heart is OK, Paul is saying much more than that. He really seems to be making Christ the equal of God's Holy Spirit in this, and probably in other contexts as well.

In effect, putting "Christ" on a throne in one's heart that should be reserved for Jehovah God alone.

Pay particular attention to Romans 8.9 verse. Paul, by mixing and matching Christ and the Spririt of God, is saying that "Christ is God".

I don't like it, you don't like it, but how else would you explain that verse where Paul mixes and matches, in the same verse?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 23 by Elijah John]

I think one thing we can agree on is we interpret verses completely differently. I think you can respect that I cannot argue a position ("mixing and matching", "an interchangable Christ" or whatever other notion you are proposing as a premise...) that I don't hold, any more than I can defend an imbalance I don't see. As for the specific verses in question, since you cannot know what I think about them, or how I interpret them, it is , may I say, somewhat presumptious for you to tell me what I like or "do not like" about them.


JW

[onewithhim]

To Elijah John: Do you have any comment in response to my Post #19?


.

[onewithhim]

Question for you JW, Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body.

As someone who does not believe that Jesus is God, (and here we agree) how is OK to mix and match "Christ" with the Holy Spirit?

I don't believe Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body, neither do I believe that Paul mixes and matches "Christ" with holy spirit so I'm afraid I cannot help you with that.

Maybe if you can find someone that agrees with the premise you present you will be able to get some clarificaiton on these points.

Sorry,

JW

No need to apologize because here is an example:

Paul also wrote: Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love... and Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
etc.

(bold my emphasis for contrast)

Intentional or not, Ted gives us the answer, in this post # 8 from the "What is the difference between the risen Christ and the Holy Spirit" topic.

Note the mix and match usage by Paul. And I'm sure there are other examples.

So, how would a JW come to terms with someone "dwelling in one's heart" who is not God?

How would it sound if one said "so that Michael the Archangel may dwell in your hearts through faith". A bit like idolatry, wouldn't it?

Not saying that JW's teaching of Jesus being MtA, is idolatry, but only saying that having anyone but Jehovah God in this context, in the Temple of one's heart, sounds dangerously close to idolatry.

Please don't argue that having any beloved human in one's heart is OK, Paul is saying much more than that. He really seems to be making Christ the equal of God's Holy Spirit in this, and probably in other contexts as well.

In effect, putting "Christ" on a throne in one's heart that should be reserved for Jehovah God alone.

Pay particular attention to Romans 8.9 verse. Paul, by mixing and matching Christ and the Spririt of God, is saying that "Christ is God".

I don't like it, you don't like it, but how else would you explain that verse where Paul mixes and matches, in the same verse?

The Holy Spirit is Jehovah's force....it is not a person, and it always comes from Jehovah. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit comes from Jehovah, and he said he would ASK the Father to send it on a particular occasion. (Please see Matthew 10:20; Luke 4:18 [where Jesus quotes Isaiah 61:1,2]; Luke 11:13; Acts 2:18 [where Peter alludes to the fact that GOD said he would pour out his Spirit].)

The Holy Spirit is always Jehovah's. Any Holy Spirit that Christ had or has, always comes FROM JEHOVAH.

"Ted," IMHO, misunderstands just what the Holy Spirit is.


.

[Elijah John]

Question for you JW, Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body.

As someone who does not believe that Jesus is God, (and here we agree) how is OK to mix and match "Christ" with the Holy Spirit?

I don't believe Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body, neither do I believe that Paul mixes and matches "Christ" with holy spirit so I'm afraid I cannot help you with that.

Maybe if you can find someone that agrees with the premise you present you will be able to get some clarificaiton on these points.

Sorry,

JW

No need to apologize because here is an example:

Paul also wrote: Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love... and Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
etc.

(bold my emphasis for contrast)

Intentional or not, Ted gives us the answer, in this post # 8 from the "What is the difference between the risen Christ and the Holy Spirit" topic.

Note the mix and match usage by Paul. And I'm sure there are other examples.

So, how would a JW come to terms with someone "dwelling in one's heart" who is not God?

How would it sound if one said "so that Michael the Archangel may dwell in your hearts through faith". A bit like idolatry, wouldn't it?

Not saying that JW's teaching of Jesus being MtA, is idolatry, but only saying that having anyone but Jehovah God in this context, in the Temple of one's heart, sounds dangerously close to idolatry.

Please don't argue that having any beloved human in one's heart is OK, Paul is saying much more than that. He really seems to be making Christ the equal of God's Holy Spirit in this, and probably in other contexts as well.

In effect, putting "Christ" on a throne in one's heart that should be reserved for Jehovah God alone.

Pay particular attention to Romans 8.9 verse. Paul, by mixing and matching Christ and the Spririt of God, is saying that "Christ is God".

I don't like it, you don't like it, but how else would you explain that verse where Paul mixes and matches, in the same verse?

The Holy Spirit is Jehovah's force....it is not a person, and it always comes from Jehovah. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit comes from Jehovah, and he said he would ASK the Father to send it on a particular occasion. (Please see Matthew 10:20; Luke 4:18 [where Jesus quotes Isaiah 61:1,2]; Luke 11:13; Acts 2:18 [where Peter alludes to the fact that GOD said he would pour out his Spirit].)

The Holy Spirit is always Jehovah's. Any Holy Spirit that Christ had or has, always comes FROM JEHOVAH.

"Ted," IMHO, misunderstands just what the Holy Spirit is.


.

I mostly agree with that understanding of the Holy Spirit, but that does not let Paul of the hook for "mixing and matching, as demonstrated in Romans 8.6. In effect, calling "Christ" "God".

And if that is not so, why does Paul call "Christ" his everything? (for me (Paul) to live is Christ...)

[onewithhim]

Question for you JW, Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body.

As someone who does not believe that Jesus is God, (and here we agree) how is OK to mix and match "Christ" with the Holy Spirit?

I don't believe Paul uses the Holy Spirit and Christ interchangably, as in who inhabits the Temple of the believer's body, neither do I believe that Paul mixes and matches "Christ" with holy spirit so I'm afraid I cannot help you with that.

Maybe if you can find someone that agrees with the premise you present you will be able to get some clarificaiton on these points.

Sorry,

JW

No need to apologize because here is an example:

Paul also wrote: Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love... and Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
etc.

(bold my emphasis for contrast)

Intentional or not, Ted gives us the answer, in this post # 8 from the "What is the difference between the risen Christ and the Holy Spirit" topic.

Note the mix and match usage by Paul. And I'm sure there are other examples.

So, how would a JW come to terms with someone "dwelling in one's heart" who is not God?

How would it sound if one said "so that Michael the Archangel may dwell in your hearts through faith". A bit like idolatry, wouldn't it?

Not saying that JW's teaching of Jesus being MtA, is idolatry, but only saying that having anyone but Jehovah God in this context, in the Temple of one's heart, sounds dangerously close to idolatry.

Please don't argue that having any beloved human in one's heart is OK, Paul is saying much more than that. He really seems to be making Christ the equal of God's Holy Spirit in this, and probably in other contexts as well.

In effect, putting "Christ" on a throne in one's heart that should be reserved for Jehovah God alone.

Pay particular attention to Romans 8.9 verse. Paul, by mixing and matching Christ and the Spririt of God, is saying that "Christ is God".

I don't like it, you don't like it, but how else would you explain that verse where Paul mixes and matches, in the same verse?

The Holy Spirit is Jehovah's force....it is not a person, and it always comes from Jehovah. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit comes from Jehovah, and he said he would ASK the Father to send it on a particular occasion. (Please see Matthew 10:20; Luke 4:18 [where Jesus quotes Isaiah 61:1,2]; Luke 11:13; Acts 2:18 [where Peter alludes to the fact that GOD said he would pour out his Spirit].)

The Holy Spirit is always Jehovah's. Any Holy Spirit that Christ had or has, always comes FROM JEHOVAH.

"Ted," IMHO, misunderstands just what the Holy Spirit is.


.

I mostly agree with that understanding of the Holy Spirit, but that does not let Paul of the hook for "mixing and matching, as demonstrated in Romans 8.6. In effect, calling "Christ" "God".

And if that is not so, why does Paul call "Christ" his everything? (for me (Paul) to live is Christ...)

I don't believe that Paul was "mixing and matching" in Romans 8:6 or in verse 9. Nowhere does he ever suggest that Christ is God.

Romans 8:9 (NWT): "However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God's spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ's spirit, this one does not belong to him. [And verse 10] But if Christ is in union with you, the body indeed is dead on account of sin, but the spirit is life on account of righteousness. [11] If, now THE SPIRIT OF HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS FROM THE DEAD dwells in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you."

I said in a previous post that "Christ's spirit" originated with Jehovah's spirit. The Spirit never originated from Christ. The Holy Spirit is always Jehovah's. "Christ's spirit" suggests that Christ was unified with Jehovah's spirit, and thus it could be said that Christ had the same Spirit bestowed on him, because he agreed with the Father. As you can see from Romans 8:11, the Spirit is assigned by Paul to the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead. It is the Father's spirit.


.

[Sword007]

This question is specifically for Jehovah's Witnesses, but anyone is welcome to chime in.

As an organization who understands and appreciates the name of God, Father Jehovah, why regard Paul at all? Someone who places Jesus name above all, even above the name of Father Jehovah?

The Watchtower Society proclaims the name of the LORD Jehovah, Paul? Never. Unless I am missing something.

He seems to equate "the Lord" with "Christ", not YHVH.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name

Phillippians 2.9

For debate...has Paul put Jesus name above every other name including YHVH's?

If it was God and not Paul who did this, where does YHVH say He would ever do this, putting the Messiah's name above His own?

If not, why doesn't Paul proclaim YHVH's name, only Jesus?

If Paul has put Jesus name above all, why should anyone who loves YHVH consider Paul's writings "Sacred Scripture"?

Paul Said he was taught the Gospel by the risen Christ. He did not learn it from any man. This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, also known as the Gospel of Grace, meaning we are no longer under law but grace (God's unmerited favor). This is the very Gospel whereby we must be saved. So, how can we disregard Paul?

[Elijah John]

This question is specifically for Jehovah's Witnesses, but anyone is welcome to chime in.

As an organization who understands and appreciates the name of God, Father Jehovah, why regard Paul at all? Someone who places Jesus name above all, even above the name of Father Jehovah?

The Watchtower Society proclaims the name of the LORD Jehovah, Paul? Never. Unless I am missing something.

He seems to equate "the Lord" with "Christ", not YHVH.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name

Phillippians 2.9

For debate...has Paul put Jesus name above every other name including YHVH's?

If it was God and not Paul who did this, where does YHVH say He would ever do this, putting the Messiah's name above His own?

If not, why doesn't Paul proclaim YHVH's name, only Jesus?

If Paul has put Jesus name above all, why should anyone who loves YHVH consider Paul's writings "Sacred Scripture"?

Paul Said he was taught the Gospel by the risen Christ. He did not learn it from any man. This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, also known as the Gospel of Grace, meaning we are no longer under law but grace (God's unmerited favor). This is the very Gospel whereby we must be saved. So, how can we disregard Paul?

Welcome to the site, Sword.

My point is that Jehovah's Witnesses honor God...by Name. It is questionable whether Paul ever did. So why would JW's honor Paul when even a casual reading of the Psalms in a version that honors YHVH by Name (Jerusalem Bible, American Standard Version, etc,) reveals that anything "Christ" can do, YHVH, the Father did first. Namely forgive sins, for his own sake (not Jesus') and for His Name's sake..YHVH, not Jesus.)

But Paul has in effect, has replaced YHVH with "Christ", who is everything to Paul.