Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[OnceConvinced]

Polytheism is worshipping more than one God as GOD ALMIGHTY.

Incorrect. Polytheism is the belief in or worship of more than one god, FULL STOP. "as God almighty" seems to be something you've added in to suit an agenda.

Check out the dictionary meaning.

Anyway, the trinity is worshipping one god as God almighty. That god has different aspects to it. It is still one god almighty

And please don't tell me I don't understand what "trinity" means. I grew up in trinitarian churches---Methodist, Southern Baptist, and a few others.

You are the one giving a false representation of what the trinity is. Is there any wonder why we think you don't understand it?

I am in agreement with you that something we can't understand is not something that we should hang our hats on.

I would agree that if one doesn't understand something they should not hang their hats on it. I can fully understand why you thus do not "hang your hat" on the trinity.

I however had no such problem in understanding the trinity.

But if it makes you feel any better I no longer put my hat on it. I no longer believe in the trinity. To me now it is simply another religious fantasy.

It's good to know that you will not hang your hat on something you don't understand though. I'm sure you can fully understand when others would not hang their hat on Jehovah.

And even more would it be true that Jehovah would understand why we would not hang our hat on him and would surely not condemn us for it. If it's true that we should not hang our hat on something we don't understand then Jehovah should not expect any human to hang their hat on him, because his ways are so much higher than ours.

In fact from now on I would expect you to be telling others not to trust Jehovah unless they first understand him. We would not want to hang out hat on something we don't understand, would we?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 211 by OnceConvinced]

I see that you cannot add 1 + 1 + 1.


The next time you hear someone say "Jesus is God," are you going to say, "No, he's a PART of God"? If that ever happens, let me know how they look at you.


.

[onewithhim]

Then what did Jehovah mean when he said the following?

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God." (Ex.20:4,5, NASB)

You need to do more than just look on the outside and judge people. You need to know what is going on in their hearts and what their intentions are. No Christian worships or prays to wooden objects.

All right. I see what you're saying, though I don't agree that all of the people who use physical objects in their prayer and worship are not praying TO the object. I think people have become confused about what the image really means, or, supposedly means. But I agree---no Christian worships or prays to wooden objects (or stone or plaster or metal, etc.).

I am not meaning to judge individual people. I am observing what I have come to feel is a misleading of many people by a religious institution that takes advantage of their flocks for their own ends. Selling images is quite a lucrative business for many merchants, including the Vatican gift shops. They aren't alone. I would venture a guess that all other religions sell their share of, or encourage the buying of, icons.

The Apostle Paul was attacked by silversmiths in Corinth because he converted many of the pagans of the city to Christianity. They stopped buying the silver idols of Artemis (or whoever it was). That was really bad for business!

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 211 by OnceConvinced]

I see that you cannot add 1 + 1 + 1.
.

That is because it's not 1 + 1 + 1

It is 1 x 1 x 1

The next time you hear someone say "Jesus is God," are you going to say, "No, he's a PART of God"? If that ever happens, let me know how they look at you.

Anyone who believes in the trinity and understands it will nod, smile and say "Of course!"

Those who don't understand the trinity may look at me funny.

But for all intents and purposes Jesus is God so I'm not going to argue.

[onewithhim]

Monotheists, like JWs, worship ONLY THE FATHER, JEHOVAH as God Almighty. Just Him and Him alone.

There are MANY "little g gods" ....as Paul particularly brought out in his letter to the Corinthians:

Do you insist on calling all the little-g gods "almighty"? THEN they would be part of a polytheistic belief system. But I do not consider the little-g gods to be equal to Jehovah the Most High. Therefore I am not worshipping the little-g gods as God Almighty. I am not polytheistic, as are the trinitarians.

And please don't tell me I don't understand what "trinity" means. I grew up in trinitarian churches---Methodist, Southern Baptist, and a few others.
[/b]

An interesting argument because it presumes that other gods do indeed exist. And that they are be definition gods and lords as Yahweh is.

Exodus 12:12
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

So by this idea there are a pantheon of gods and you should only worship one; but the others do indeed exist and they have the ability to manipulate the world also?

And I always found the 'trinity' despicable personally. There was 4 entities in the creation of the so called 'saviour' according to the bible; The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit and The Mother. It is by definition a 4th entity that creates the human connection completing the puzzle. Without The Mother it is presumed that it is above humans; and there for to me disconnected and irrelevant. But that's my own personal opinion.

They exist, but are not on the same LEVEL as the one true God, Jehovah. He, in reality, is the ONLY true God that exists. The others are gods because men have made them important. Israel recognized human judges, angels, governors, Caesar, and even the devil as "gods."

These other gods manipulate the world only as far as men make or allow them to manipulate. Even Satan wouldn't have much power if mankind completely honored Jehovah.

[onewithhim]

The answer of going to heaven; the bible states (New Testament to collaborate with many christian strange beliefs that the old testament can be 'abandoned')

Matthew
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.�

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?�

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.�

My understanding is which is often repeated that you must live a good life and be a good person. You may or may not follow the teachings of Christ in this matter; but it is not border hinged on following Christ himself. And it would be paramount for an all loving god not to punish an individual who lead a good life and did as Christ would have to punish someone to eternal damnation because of their own discretion and the free will which he supposedly gave and which a person used for good entirely except to turn an eye away from a god who offers no evidence of his existence outside a book written by middle aged peasants.

Thanks for your input.

I personally feel that to Christ and to Jehovah it matters what people think of them, expecially the Most High God Jehovah. Jesus himself was concerned with letting people know about his Father (John 17:6,26). Why wouldn't we want to know the truth about the one who created all things? Wouldn't that be a good thing?

I have said many times that Jehovah is not going to EVER roast someone in a fire, for anything. Having said that, he wants everyone to have the chance to get to know him. He will only put out of commission those people who are vile and evil and choose not to follow His basic rules, like the very basic Ten Commandments. People who will not even conform to those things---treating others in a humane way---and who will not recognize Jehovah's right to require those things of people, will not be allowed to live among people who do want to love their neighbors.

I don't believe anyone will be destroyed before they fully understand who God is and what he requires of us.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 217 by OnceConvinced]

It's entirely your opinion that what Jesus does in Revelation is "only what God could do." God GAVE Jesus power and authority. That is a substantiated fact. So Jesus can do powerful things. That doesn't make him God.

[tam]

(1) John 5:19...."The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

This verse is a perfect illustration of the trinity.

How so?

The Father is depicted in this verse. The Son is depicted in this verse. That makes two. A duo at most.


Wouldn't a perfect illustration of the trinity require a trio, at least?

Also note verse 22-23:
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

What do you think honouring the son as you would the father would mean?

Once again... the Father is depicted. The Son is depicted.

Two.

Not three.


(As an illustration to answer your question though... Pharaoh in Egypt placed Joseph in charge of all His belongings. Joseph was second only to Pharaoh. If one wanted something from Pharaoh, then one needed to go to Joseph. Joseph was to be honored as one honored Pharaoh. If one was dishonoring Joseph, one would be dishonoring Pharaoh.

As a more modern example perhaps, an oil tycoon decides it is time for his son to take over, inherit. So he puts his son in charge of everything. You think he does not expect all of this employees, partners, etc, to treat the son he has placed in charge with the same respect and honor as they treated him? If one of them tries to come to him, would he not send them to his son, whom he has placed in charge?)

(2) John 6:38...."I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me."

Once again we see an illustration of the trinity here.

Once again we see two. The Father, whose will the Son is doing.

(And a son can do his father's will without being the same human as his father, yes? Fathers can send their sons - their heirs - to do their will, in matters of business, of kingdoms - kings and their sons, etc. Right?)

(3) John 12:49...."I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." If Jesus was God, would he need to take orders from anyone?

Same as before. Jesus works as God’s hand on the earth in human form. What he does is instructed by the brain (Jehovah). This verse is another perfect example of how the trinity works.

Again, two not three.

4) John 14:28...."The Father is greater than I am

Of course the father is greater. Jesus is only the human version of God.

Again, there are two here; but not three.

(If Jesus is the human version of God, what version of God are you suggesting the Father is?)

Anyone who doubts the trinity needs to look at an earlier verse in John 14. Verse 6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

Where is the third person in this verse?

Verse 9 also states:
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father

Again he is showing us here that he is part of the trinity.

How does 'he who has seen me has seen my Father'... depict a trinity, when a trinity requires three?

Vs 10:
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Once again a perfect example of the trinity.

A perfect example of the trinity would be three.

In v15 he says:
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Whose commandments? Why Jehovah’s of course! Jesus is saying they are HIS OWN commandments. That is because he speaks as part of the trinity! ON behalf of Jehovah himself!

Again, at most, this would be two.. not three. No trinity.

Verse 16-17 the holy spirit is mentioned. Then what does Jesus say in vs 18?
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Who is the comforter? The Holy spirit of course. He just mentioned him. Then he says “I will come to you.� Who is coming to you? The holy spirit. Jesus is speaking on behalf of the holy spirit too. Why? Because the holy spirit is also part of the trinity.

This is a tricky one because of the scribes. The scribes always personified holy spirit. But in fact, he/she/it are interchangeable, and the choice doctrine led to the choice of which pronoun to use.


This Holy Spirit sounds as though this is Christ - because Christ says later in the verse "I" will come to you. He is the Holy Spirit (He is both Holy and the Spirit, making Him the Holy Spirit.)


But there is also holy spirit (the water of Life) that Christ breathed upon His apostles (and breathes also others, but the apostles first), which is not a person, but the breath/blood/seed of Jah. Christ is the one who gives this holy spirit to whomever He chooses. This holy spirit is not a person.

Just as Joseph gave the grain that belonged to Pharaoh to whomever HE chose, and the people needed the grain to live, but the grain was not a person. Just as holy spirit (breath/blood/seed of Jah) is needed for us to live, but is not a separate person.

In this depiction, Joseph is Christ. Pharaoh is God. The grain is holy spirit. We are given this illustration as a physical representation of the spiritual reality.

This makes three things... but only two of these things are PERSONS.

Vs 20
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Sounds very much like he’s endorsing the trinity to me. He’s speaking of himself, Jehovah and the holy spirit as if they are one.

In that verses, I see Him speaking of the Father and the Son (and us). Christ in His Father, us in Christ, and Christ in us.

Of course, this is by means of holy spirit (the blood/breath/seed of Jah), which we are anointed with, which Christ gave and gives to whomever He chooses (beginning with His apostles).

But we are not anointed with a person, we are anointed BY a person (Christ) with holy spirit (breath/blood/seed of Jah).

Vs 23 once again shows a clear picture of the trinity:
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Where is a third person in that verse? There is the Father. There is the Son. If a man loves Christ, that man will keep His word, and the Father OF Christ (not the brain of Christ) will love that man, and they (the Father and the Son) will make their abode with(in) that man (or woman).


This verse cannot scream trinity because there are only two persons in it.

." (It should be noted that it was not just when Jesus was on Earth that this was the case; even after he returned to heaven "the head of Christ is God"---I Corinth.11:3.)

What a perfect illustration of the trinity here. Jehovah is the head. Where the brain resides. The controller for the rest of the body. Jesus is simply part of the body. It cannot possibly be greater than the head.

Even IF your example was correct (not saying that it is), where is the third person in this verse that is necessary for a perfect illustration of a trinity?

(5) John 17:3...."This is eternal life, that they may know You [the Father], the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

Two persons - not three.

(6) John 20:17b...."I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God."

Nothing about this verse or any of your other verses contradict the concept of the trinity. In fact they scream out “trinity�.

Where are there three in this verse?

However its quite clear that he is meant to provide a method of communication between human and Jehovah.

Yes.

There is one mediator between man and God, and that is Christ.



Peace to you and to yours,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Demented_Literature]

[Replying to onewithhim]

See this is where I start to lose the concept of the bible as the word of god. People like yourself say that god would never roast anyone alive. But the bible (specifically the new testament) disagree's with you.

Mathew 25:31-46 defines this explicitly; explaining in 25:46

Mathew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�

For me to believe that you have to believe in Christ to enter heaven and be saved; or that 'god has a purpose for everyone' seems to me a fallacy that everyone has a reason. Am I to believe that the non-believer who gives the last of his meal to the hungry is less righteous than the priest who feasts among the starving?

And on your point of 'knowing the creator'. What benefit is there to knowing whom created something. I have no benefit of knowing whom the creator of a wrist watch is; I am only of need to know it gives me the time when I ask of it. If I was to ask the name of the maker; what information could I garnish from this that would be of any use? If at all?

No; if there is a god that loves then there can be no hell. No damnation. No punishment for a finite arbitrary amount of time paramount to the seconds hand on a clock. And I offer for every moment spent on worship; one could have assisted alleviating the suffering of another instead. Perhaps something to think about.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 229 by Demented_Literature]

"No; if there is a god that loves then there can be no hell. No damnation. No punishment for a finite arbitrary amount of time paramount to the seconds hand on a clock. And I offer for every moment spent on worship; one could have assisted alleviating the suffering of another instead. Perhaps something to think about."

If God were to come to you and ask you what would you do with those people who hate others, abuse children, are violent, have no respect for others only time for themselves, have no respect for any law and order, what would you say?