Messiah's 2nd Coming?

[Elijah John]

Was the doctrine of the 2nd coming of Jesus forumulated because he failed to accomplish Messianic expectations the first time around? I.e., universal peace and justice, the redemption of Israel from it's enemies?

Where was it written in the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible that the Messiah would need to come twice to accomplish his Messianic role?

[Joe1950]

If the all knowing all powerful god did not get the job done 2000 years ago why is he waiting so long to make a comeback?
Today the world is much more violent and complicated. Much more difficult to deal with.
If god could not impose his divine will by bringing universal peace 2000 years ago I suggest he has given up. Wisely so.
If the "Messiah" were to come again today with a vision of peace he would be laughed off the internet. Little Kim of North Korea and big Donnie of the US and sneaky Val of Russia would hardly accept the message of peace and love. Give up their dreams of world domination through military force? I think not.
Face it. God failed 2000 years ago. The Messiah did not deliver. And since then god has decided to concentrate on some other part of the universe, perhaps in the Andromeda galaxy.

[onewithhim]

Was the doctrine of the 2nd coming of Jesus forumulated because he failed to accomplish Messianic expectations the first time around? I.e., universal peace and justice, the redemption of Israel from it's enemies?

Where was it written in the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible that the Messiah would need to come twice to accomplish his Messianic role?

Isaiah 53 tells us that the Messiah would be hated and killed, so the Scriptures do not indicate that the Messiah would completely clean up the mess that the world was in when he first came.

Verses 10 and 11 indicate that, even though he would die, he would eventually have his days prolonged....thus hinting at his resurrection. That he would fulfill the plan of world peace and justice is also indicated in those verses:

"In his hand what is the delight of Jehovah will succeed. Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be satisfied. By the knowing of him, the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he will bear."

So he was not meant to bring total peace and justice the first time around. That he would do so eventually is clear when other Scriptures are read. E.g., Isaiah 11:1-10 speaks of the time when righteousness WILL rule and the earth will be a place just like God planned in the beginning.

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QUESTION: Where in Isaiah does it say that the Suffering Servant would be killed?

"He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness....He was despised, and we held him as of no account. Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors....He was hard-pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted...He was being just like sheep to the slaughtering....He was severed from the land of the living. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke. And he will make his BURIAL PLACE even with the wicked ones...."

(Isaiah 53:3b-5,7a,8b-9)

RESPONSE: I'm afraid that Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with the Messiah, although Christian apologists ignore the complete contents and try to claim a prophecy of Jesus

The suffering servant is clearly identified and he is to have a long life and many children.

http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The ... rvant.html

“You are My servant, O Israel� (41:8)

“You are My servant, Israel� (49:3)

see also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20

The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant�; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22. There is no reason that the “servant� in Isaiah 53 would suddenly switch and refer to someone other than the Jewish people.

Isaiah 53:5 is a classic example of mistranslation: The verse does not say, “He was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities,� which could convey the vicarious suffering ascribed to Jesus. Rather, the proper translation is: “He was wounded because of our transgressions, and crushed because of our iniquities.� This conveys that the Servant suffered as a result of the sinfulness of others – not the opposite as Christians contend – that the Servant suffered to atone for the sins of others.
וֹ

The phrase, "land of the living� (Eretz HaChaim) refers specifically to the Land of Israel. Thus this verse, “He was removed from the land of the living,� does not mean that the servant was killed, but rather was exiled from the Land of Israel.


ויהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּ�וֹ הֶחֱלִי �ִ� תָּשִׂי� �ָש�ָ� נַפְש�וֹ יִרְ�ֶה זֶרַע יַ�ֲרִיךְ יָמִי� וְחֵפֶץ יְהוָה בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח

"God desired to oppress� the Jewish people, in order to inspire them to return to Torah observance. If the Jews would only "acknowledge guilt," they would see their "offspring and live long days." This refers to the Messianic era when all Jews will return to Torah observance.

This verse emphasizes that the Servant is to be rewarded with long life and many children. This verse could not possibly refer to Jesus who, according to the New Testament, died young and childless. (Furthermore, if Jesus was alleged to be the immortal Son of God, it is absurd to apply the concept of “living long days.�)

You are completely missing what is clearly indicated by Isaiah in his chapter 53. How can the suffering servant BE Israel when the suffering servant is killed FOR Israel? "Crushed BECAUSE OF OUR INIQUITIES." Who is "our"? Isaiah's countrymen---Israel. Israel acted with faithlessness toward God and so the suffering servant was sent to be crushed FOR them and "carry the sin of many people." (vs.12)

The Israelites had wandered about like sheep, but all of their errors were taken on by "that one" that Jehovah sent. (vs.6)

I stand by what I wrote in my previous post, which you seem to have skipped over. I don't see any reasonable argument that addresses my points.

Israel was certainly referred to in other chapters as Jehovah's "servant," but chapter 53 does not refer to Israel itself. It could not, because the suffering servant is said to "bring a righteous standing to many people, and their errors he will bear." (vs.11) How can this possibly be referring to the nation? Israel had no righteous standing at all with God. The people of Israel were constantly being reproved and admonished by God to end their wicked ways. How could they be called "the righteous one"? (vs.11)

Jeremiah was sent by God to pronounce judgments to Israel. Throughout his book Israel is castigated and warned. Israel could never be the suffering servant described in Isaiah 53. Isaiah wrote of the suffering servant: "he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth." (vs.9)

Jeremiah brings out the fact that Israel was violent and full of deceit:

"Hear the word of Jehovah, O house of Jacob, and all you families of the house of Israel. This is what Jehovah has said: 'What have your fathers found in me that was unjust, so that they have become far off from me, and they kept walking after the vain idol and becoming vain themselves?...I gradually brought you to a land of the orchard, to eat its fruitage and its good things. But you came and defiled my land; and my own inheritance you made something detestable." (Jer.2:4,5,7)

"Wash your heart clean of sheer badness, O Jerusalem, in order that you may be saved. How long will your erroneous thoughts lodge within you?" (Jer.4:14) How could they save anyone or take on the errors of anyone so that others could live?

"Among my people there have been found wicked men. They keep peering, as when birdcatchers crouch down. They have set a ruuinous trap. It is men that they catch. As a cage is full of flying creatures, so their houses are full of deception." (Jer.5:26,27)

"Violence and despoiling are heard in her [Jerusalem]; sickness and plague are before my face constantly. Be corrected, O Jerusalem, that my soul may not turn away disgusted from you; that I may not set you as a desolate waste, a land not inhabited." (Jer.6:7,8)


The whole book of Jeremiah is full of passages like this. It is clear that it is Israel that needs saving. Israel cannot save anyone, as the suffering servant is said to in Isaiah 53.


.

[dio9]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Do you think Jesus was the prophesied Son of Man in Daniel ? or

Is Daniel prophesying the second coming of Christ?

Must be the second 'cause Jesus was physically crushed by the Romans. But will not the Son of Man return the same way he came the first time? Born of woman in the likeness of a son of man. Or will he come back as a supernatural being . In other words will the returned Christ be a man or God?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Do you think Jesus was the prophesied Son of Man in Daniel ? or

Is Daniel prophesying the second coming of Christ?

Must be the second 'cause Jesus was physically crushed by the Romans. But will not the Son of Man return the same way he came the first time? Born of woman in the likeness of a son of man. Or will he come back as a supernatural being . In other words will the returned Christ be a man or God?

Both the Son of Man in Daniel AND Daniel was prophesying the 2nd coming.

No, Jesus will not come the same way he came the first time. He will come back as a supernatural being (though not God).

He is described in the Revelation as coming to "conquer" at Rev.6:2, and in chapter 19 he is described as being in heaven on a white horse, again, "carrying on war in righteousness." Also, "the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses....And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron." (verses 11 and 14, 15) Jesus will wrap up all of the earth's problems...bringing them to an end, by eliminating all evil people and their institutions. He will begin governing the earth himself, for a thousand years, from heaven.


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[marco]

Jesus doesn't come back to "ask" the kings of the earth if they would mind possibly if it's not too much trouble and if they feel inclined to pass over their power.

DANIEL 2:44
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever

The language of "kings" is the stuff of a past era. Democracies have risen where kings once held sway. It is odd to subjugate our modern advances to the out-of-date messages of some self-appointed magician. And it is incredible that people familiar with skyscrapers and television want to make sense of such texts.

[onewithhim]

Jesus doesn't come back to "ask" the kings of the earth if they would mind possibly if it's not too much trouble and if they feel inclined to pass over their power.

DANIEL 2:44
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever

The language of "kings" is the stuff of a past era. Democracies have risen where kings once held sway. It is odd to subjugate our modern advances to the out-of-date messages of some self-appointed magician. And it is incredible that people familiar with skyscrapers and television want to make sense of such texts.

"Kings" in the Bible refer to any head of state. They had kings then....now besides kings we have presidents, prime ministers, chancellors, etc. We understand that. Just like war implements in the Bible are referred to as "wagons" and "swords." We know that those archaic words were used for that time, but today of course the words would be "tanks" and "bombs," etc.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

if a supernatural being wipes out evil and establishes a righteous kingdom , what happens to human free will. I tend to think since humans created this problematic and often evil world order , it should be up to we humans , al be it with the help of God to fix it. So the Son of Man has to be more than a likeness the son of man needs to be human.
Do you think the son of man will be a second coming of the God of Joshua commanding his people to drive the inhabitants out of the land (the whole earth) killing everyone man women and child, and everything goats cattle chickens horses and pigs. Do you really think that is the kind of terror Christ, the son of man, will bring?

[JehovahsWitness]

Or will he come back as a supernatural being . In other words will the returned Christ be a man or God?

Pretty smart questions Dio!

Short answer is Jesus will not return to be a man. His return will be as a mighty spirit leading an army of myriads of angels. If you recal in the bible a single angel killed 185,000 fighting men in one night (and we don't even know if it took him all night, he could have been home before midnight...) can you imagine what what an army of millions of such angels will do?

This is why it is laughable to think any human forces can defeat Jesus when he returns to take control of this our planet earth.

Must be the second 'cause Jesus was physically crushed by the Romans.

JESUS' FIRST MISSION

When Jesus first came to earth it was on a mission. Not to judge but to give his life as a human male for mankind. He suffered "humiliation", torture and death but successfully kept his integrity. He explained that his kingdom was not of human political sources ("of this world") and was no threat to the immediate Roman powers.

That was then, this is now...



JESUS' SECOND MISSION: The "second coming"

Jesus' second coming is on an altogether different mission. He returns as God's appointed KING to Judge every individual on earth. He will kill off those he judges as incorrigibly wicked and completely crush every human government on earth. He will neither ask for their permission nor seek a majority approval.

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Do you think Jesus was the prophesied Son of Man in Daniel ? or
Is Daniel prophesying the second coming of Christ?

Prophetically both are one and the same... Jesus Christ. Of course Daniel himself was called "son of man" by the angels that gave him prophetic messages, but in the wider prophetic sense, Jesus often referred to himself as "the son of man" when he was on earth to highlight his humanity. Daniel chapter seven however, speaks of the "son of man" approaching Jehovah (The "ancient of days") to recieve kingdom power and authority. Which the ressurected jesus said he had received (see Mat 28: 19)

Thus in a Prophetic sense Jesus is the "son of man"who after his earthly mission as a human, will return, not as a human but as a mighty supernatual being in the capacity of earth's KING, and appointed judge to destroy the wicked and take control of the planet.

We call this final destruction Armageddon. After this event the surviving meek will inherit this our present planet earth to live forever under his (Jesus') rulership.

But will not the Son of Man return the same way he came the first time? Born of woman in the likeness of a son of man.

No. There is nothing in the bible that says Jesus will return as a human much less that he will be born a second time of another virgin as he did back in the first century.





JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

THE LAST DAYS , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ

GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

if a supernatural being wipes out evil and establishes a righteous kingdom , what happens to human free will. I tend to think since humans created this problematic and often evil world order , it should be up to we humans , al be it with the help of God to fix it. So the Son of Man has to be more than a likeness the son of man needs to be human.
Do you think the son of man will be a second coming of the God of Joshua commanding his people to drive the inhabitants out of the land (the whole earth) killing everyone man women and child, and everything goats cattle chickens horses and pigs. Do you really think that is the kind of terror Christ, the son of man, will bring?

Humans' free will has been in operation for millennia, and it will continue to be in operation. People have the opportunity now to accept God's plan for rescuing us out of inherited sin's grip. We use our free will to either go with that, or not. We WILL fix this world order with the help of God. He is justice personified. All of the incorrigibly evil humans will finally be removed, and righteous people will be able to live in peace and security.

Jesus WAS human. He was the only perfect human that ever lived, after Adam and Eve. Then after he rose from the dead, he was a spirit person again, a mighty supernatural being that will come soon to rid the earth of evil.

Armageddon will not be the death of "every man, woman, and child." Just evil people who choose to continue to be evil and make others' lives miserable.


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[JehovahsWitness]

if a supernatural being wipes out evil and establishes a righteous kingdom , what happens to human free will.

Free will will always exist for Jehovah's intelligent creatures. In the case of the incoming Kingdom the choice will be simple, submit to the incoming government and live forever in happiness or not.

Those that do not want to live on a paradise earth in perfect health fulfilling their dreams will not be forced to do so.


Nobody will be forced to live in paradise if they don't want to!



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