2 Samuel 24. How can you possibly justify this?

[Justin108]

2 Samuel 24:15

"So the Lord sent a plague through Israel from the morning until the completion of the appointed time. Seventy thousand men died from Dan to Beer Sheba."



So God killed 70 000 men. Why? Because David decided to take a census! Why would God kill 70 000 because David took a census? A census! He counted people!
What could possibly justify this senseless slaughter?

Even if David was in the wrong for taking a census, why punish his people? David is the one that messed up, so in response God kills 70 000 other men? What possible justification is there for this? How was David's actions evil and why were 70 000 other people punished for David's actions?

[2timothy316]

Another baseless assumption

As was your assumption that he was a righteous person. Of course because of your bias to prove God as a monster, I'd expect nothing less. There is nothing in the Bible that says he was a righteous good person. There is only in the Bible that God doesn't judge righteous people to death thus the man gathering wood was not a righteous person.

[Justin108]

Another baseless assumption

As was your assumption that he was a good person.

For your excuse to work, we will need to assume that every single person to ever have worked on the Sabbath at that time was an evil person since people caught working on the Sabbath were all sentenced to death, as was the law.

[2timothy316]

Another baseless assumption

As was your assumption that he was a good person.

For your excuse to work, we will need to assume that every single person to ever have worked on the Sabbath at that time was an evil person since people caught working on the Sabbath were all sentenced to death, as was the law.

For yours to work you'd have to prove every single person wasn't.

Again, I have Deut 32:4 as the authority in this matter that God is perfect in judgement. You don't have to accept that scripture as having the final authority in the matter but it is not my job to convince only to defend using the Bible. That is the forum you're in. While you imagine the person was innocent on baseless assumption, because of Deut 32:4 I can discern that person was not.

[Justin108]

For your excuse to work, we will need to assume that every single person to ever have worked on the Sabbath at that time was an evil person since people caught working on the Sabbath were all sentenced to death, as was the law.

For yours to work you'd have to prove every single person wasn't.

Innocent until proven guilty. This makes about as much sense as a country instating a law that says "those who wear socks of different colors must be sentenced to death and whoever questions this law must prove that every person who wears socks of mixed colors is not in fact evil". Do you see how ridiculous this notion is?

Again, I have Deut 32:4 as the authority in this matter that God is perfect in judgement.

You would rather assume that every single person on earth to ever work on the Sabbath is evil than to consider the possibility that Deuteronomy was wrong. This is no different from ISIS making the assumption that "surely everyone we behead is actually evil and you must first prove that they are innocent. If you can't, then their deaths were justified".

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 14 by Justin108]

Deut 32:4 "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."

I'm not assuming. I'm trusting what the Bible says about His judgements. They are perfect. I do not assume to judge for God either so the ISIS comment is moot. Nor do I attempt to even know what is in that perfect mind of His outside what the Bible says. You're biased. I get it. You're an accuser, I get it. I'm a defender. Take a look at the scripture above and decided if you are going to defend it or call it a lie. But have something solid, not just one liners from the Bible coupled with your imagination of what you want to believe. With the scripture above I can rightly assume every death or the forgiving of a person by God's hand is perfectly justified and right. I do not assume the opposite. I would need a scripture that says that Jehovah is not perfectly just. A person adding what they think if a person was deserving or not is not enough. Because if you're going to guess a person was innocent, that leaves it open that I can guess they were not. The difference between your guess and my guess is that my guess has more Biblical evidence because of scriptures like Deut 32:4. If a person were to guess that the person gathering wood was righteous in the eyes of God and yet Jehovah killed them, that makes Deut 32:4 a lie. Yet a person that guesses that the person gathering wood was for some reason not a righteous person that makes Deut 32:4 true.

Personally I don't have to know what kind of person the offender was or everything he did because I trust God's judgements. I'd prefer Jehovah judging me over any man.

[ttruscott]

Because it brought home to David the consequences of his sin to all those around him?

Wait so it was David's sin that lead to the deaths of these 70 000 men? You're being inconsistent. What lead to their deaths? David's sin or their own sin?

Good grief...all of us die for our own sin but the timing of their death happened because of David's sin.

[ttruscott]

Don't pretend he was secretly evil in other ways the Bible neglected to mention.

Pretend? Most of Christendom accepts that all people are born guilty of sin and worthy of death. Any particular sin might mark the time to die, "now, this disobedience is when you die" but the sin that kills has nothing to do with sticks but a heart of disobedience to GOD.

They wrongly put their sinful nature on Adam as his fault rather than on themselves as having chosen to be evil in GOD's sight by their own free will decisions pre-earth (pre-their birth) but they do accept the sinfulness of everyone at birth under the sentence of death. In doctrine at least if not on the pew.

Only the guilty are born here.
Only the guilty suffer or die.
No innocent suffers or dies here.
Being born human is the declaration to the universe that GOD thinks we are evil. Rom 5:19 'made' is better "shown/proven to be"

[ttruscott]

The question was: 2 Samuel 24. How can you possibly justify this?

Well you now have number of logical possibilities from a religious pov that you don't like. They are possible. You claim the high moral ground to try to prove these possibilities are immoral and should be discounted as you discount them, a logical fallacy. You are not the arbiter of right and wrong.

In fact, I don't think you wanted to know the possibilities at all, you just wanted to sandbag us with a sense of superior outrage.

Good bye.

[Justin108]

I'm not assuming.

You are literally assuming that this man gathering sticks means he will sacrifice his own children!

I do not assume to judge for God either so the ISIS comment is moot.

That comment is quite applicable. You believe people who gather sticks on the Sabbath deserve death because your God commands it just as ISIS believe infidels deserve death because their God commands it.

You're biased. I get it.

I operate under innocent until proven guilty and you fly in the face of that in post 13 where you assume guilty until proven innocent just because your religion says so and I'm the biased one?

But have something solid, not just one liners from the Bible coupled with your imagination of what you want to believe.

You imagined that a man gathering sticks means he's about to sacrifice his children and now you're accusing me of imagining things?

I do not assume the opposite. I would need a scripture that says that Jehovah is not perfectly just.

The problem with religion in a nutshell. You cannot think for yourself. You need scripture to tell you what to think.

[Justin108]

Because it brought home to David the consequences of his sin to all those around him?

Wait so it was David's sin that lead to the deaths of these 70 000 men? You're being inconsistent. What lead to their deaths? David's sin or their own sin?

Good grief...all of us die for our own sin but the timing of their death happened because of David's sin.

Does the time we spend on Earth matter at all to PCE? What exactly is the purpose of our life on Earth? Would David shortening our lives on Earth not affect our purpose somehow?