One religion's dramatically changing doctrines.

[polonius]

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jehovahs-Witnesses

Jehovah Witness views seem to change quite a bit especially when a previous prophecy fails. Changing views on the second coming is an example.

During the 1870s, he (Charles Taze Russell) also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (presence), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or Millennial Dawn, already had occurred, in 1874.

The coming of Christs invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.

Although the kingdom did not come, Russells teachings motivated a number of volunteers to circulate his many books and pamphlets and a periodical, The Watchtower, and to recalculate the time of the Parousia.

So when is Christ in his visible presence supposed to happen?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

Yes, we change our doctrines all the time,. Jehovah's Witnesses are a progressive religion that is constantly trying to improve their beliefs and proceduring in the light of the bible. We, Jehovah's Witnesses, believe change is good if there is valid reason for that change (being wrong about something is, according to the JW approach, one valid reason to revise a belief).

I would only advise someone that wants to join a religion that never changes to not join us. Indeed it might be an idea to not join ANY religion because I doubt they will find one that hasn't had some if not significant changes in beliefs and procedure.

Our publications have whole lists of dozens of changes we have undergone over the years. This is for us evidence the gradual and continuous improvement that is evident we have God's approval (see Prov 4:18).

[JehovahsWitness]

... when is Christ in his visible presence supposed to happen?

I don't know if this is a general question or a question regarding the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, but in case it's the latter I will explain what Jehovah's Witnesses currently believe.


QUESTION: Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus will ever return as a human to the earth?

No, this is not a JW belief; nor indeed has it ever been

Jehovah's Witnesses do believe Jesus will lead the angelic army in the final war against Satan and the Demons which will culminate in the destruction of the entire world system of things (they call this event "Armageddon"). We do not believe Jesus will ever return to earth as a human or that he will ever live or reign literally from a physcal location on this planet.

QUESTION: Do JWs believe people will literally see Jesus at Armageddon?

Jehovah's Witnesses do currently suppose that what Jesus referred to as the "sign of the son of man" (an event associated with the final destruction of the system), may well be some kind of supernatural display of power on Jesus' part. I have personally never seen a statement in any of the JWs literature stating that Jesus' will materialize (become literally visible) although we most certainly do believe Armageddon will represent a visible manifestation of Jesus celestial arrival as judge and executioner.

We are not dogmatic on the fulfillment of the specifics of Jesus' coming at Armageddon and are more than likely to revise our beliefs on this matter as things develop and God reveals more by means of his spirit.




JW



*What is "Armageddon"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 289#865289

[polonius]

[quote="JehovahsWitness"]
[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

Yes, we change our doctrines all the time,. Jehovah's Witnesses are a progressive religion that is constantly trying to improve their beliefs and proceduring in the light of the bible. We, Jehovah's Witnesses, believe change is good if there is valid reason for that change (being wrong about something is, according to the JW approach, one valid reason to revise a belief).

RESPONSE: Is that why there are so many changes in JW teaching like when Jesus who returned in 19!4 but invisibly will be come visible?

As in During the 1870s, he (Charles Taze Russell) also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (presence), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or Millennial Dawn, already had occurred, in 1874.

But then,

The coming of Christs invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.

This, of course never happened.

[JehovahsWitness]

Is that why there are so many changes in JW teaching

Yes. As I said ...

Yes, we change our doctrines all the time,. Jehovah's Witnesses are a progressive religion that is constantly trying to improve their beliefs and proceduring in the light of the bible.

There are certainly many things we believed back in the 1800's that were wrong and we no longer believe them now, that the parousia began in 1874 was one of them. We were wrong about that.

I have already explained our present belief regarding the parousia and whether Jesus will ever again be visible to humans HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 306#865306

[Willum]

[Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

So conceivably, and I am saying that time is NOW, you would have enough evidence to change your beliefs, to atheism, or akin to something like the "Prometheus"-movie scenario, where we may have been created by aliens?

I am not saying that aliens did it, I am saying that at this point in time, we can't show they didn't. Which is unlike the current state of the art in Judeo-Christianity.

[JehovahsWitness]

The coming of Christs invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.

This, of course never happened.

I do believe I explained that fully.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post on the point about the return of Christ, I will link HERE in case you missed it...
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 624#836624

JW



LINK Offiicial Jehovah's Witness website
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/

[onewithhim]

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jehovahs-Witnesses

Jehovah Witness views seem to change quite a bit especially when a previous prophecy fails. Changing views on the second coming is an example.

During the 1870s, he (Charles Taze Russell) also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (presence), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or Millennial Dawn, already had occurred, in 1874.

The coming of Christs invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.

Although the kingdom did not come, Russells teachings motivated a number of volunteers to circulate his many books and pamphlets and a periodical, The Watchtower, and to recalculate the time of the Parousia.

So when is Christ in his visible presence supposed to happen?

I agree with what JehovahsWitness has said here, and I might add that sure, we have endured some misunderstandings of the Scriptures, but what religion hasn't? As JW said, I don't think you'll find a religion that hasn't changed. What is important is whether or not that religion will ADMIT their mistakes and move forward. I can't think of very many that have admitted mistakes, though that changed dramatically since the time of Pope John Paul II. He and the popes since have admitted dire mistakes and have even asked forgiveness.

I don't remember any teaching by JWs that Christ would return visibly. Russell thought that the Kingdom would be established in 1914 and that all of the anointed Christians would go to their heavenly reward. He was wrong about half of that thinking. The nations had had their day (Luke 21:24), yes, and the Kingdom was established in heaven, according to Bible chronology (Daniel chapter 4). But Armageddon wasn't to happen yet. BTW, Russell was far from the only religious leader that has been wrong about the time of Armageddon.

His visible presence will not occur. He is a glorious spirit person now, just as he was before he came to Earth. His Father is a Spirit (John 4:24) and he has the same form. (See I Timothy 6:16.) He will rule the entire earth one day soon, after the demolition of all worldly governments and false religion (Daniel 2:44; Rev.17:15-18), but his seat of power will remain in heaven.

.

[polonius]

JW post 2 claimed:

Yes it did. The Parousia has been occurring invisibly since 1914. Only men and women of faith can discern this.

JW posted:

Elijah John wrote:

JW, you yourself said that your organization admits it's errors, why double down on Russell's failed prediction for 1914?

JW posted:

I do believe Russell was (astonishingly) spot on about the date (and that a full 35 years ahead of of time) and that that date would mark the end of the "gentile times" [1] and the start of the parousia (presense) [2].

JE asked

"Do you feel you know enough about these two subjects to debate me on that?"

RESPONSE: Of course. Most do.

As I said, I think Russell was wrong about other events connect to that date, but I believe the biblical chronology was rock solid. Do you mind that I believe this or are you telling me what I should or should not believe?

Elijah John wrote:


JW, you yourself said that your organiztion admits it's errors, why double down on Russell's failed prediction for 1914?

I do believe Russell was (astonishingly) spot on about the date (and that a full 35 years ahead of of time) and that that date would mark the end of the "gentile times" [1] and the start of the parousia (presense) [2]. Do you feel you know enough about these two subjects to debate me on that?

As I said, I think Russell was wrong about other events connect to that date, but I believe the biblical chronology was rock solid. Do you mind that I believe this or are you telling me what I should or should not believe?

RESPONSE: I think we are proving that it just didnt happen. You can believe anything you want.

JW post 10 posted:

polonius.advice wrote:

Jesus claimed that no one could know the "day and hour" of his return, according to the gospel writers it would be during the lifetime of Jesus' generation.

That is not a Jehovah's Witness interpretation. We interpret the bible passages differently.

JW

RESPONSE: Some insist on interpreting it correctly.

JW post 10

Jehovah's Witnesses interpretation of "this generation"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 219#752219

RESPONSE: Doesnt Jesus' own words demonstrate he was talking about his generation, not some future generation?

Matthew 16:28 Amen I say to you, there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
That would be Jesus generation not some future generation.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jehovahs-Witnesses

Jehovah Witness views seem to change quite a bit especially when a previous prophecy fails. Changing views on the second coming is an example.

During the 1870s, he (Charles Taze Russell) also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (presence), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or Millennial Dawn, already had occurred, in 1874.

The coming of Christs invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.

Although the kingdom did not come, Russells teachings motivated a number of volunteers to circulate his many books and pamphlets and a periodical, The Watchtower, and to recalculate the time of the Parousia.

So when is Christ in his visible presence supposed to happen?
JW

JehovahsWitness wrote:

Yes, we change our doctrines all the time,. Jehovah's Witnesses are a progressive religion that is constantly trying to improve their beliefs and proceduring in the light of the bible.


RESPONSE: Just like the song Changing, changing, ever changing. But thats a good thing because in time you may discover the errors in the JW positions.

[JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE: Just like the song Changing, changing, ever changing. But thats a good thing because in time you may discover the errors in the JW positions.

Opinion noted. Anything else?

JW