Fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of Bible's authorship

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McCulloch
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Fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of Bible's authorship

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

JehovahsWitness claims that the contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin. The third reason of three given is that it records history before it has happened.

Questions for debate:
  1. Is the Bible a reliable predictor of future events?
  2. Have any of the Biblical prophesies failed?
  3. Is fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of the Bible's divine authorship?
JehovahsWitness wrote:QUESTION How do we know the bible (canon) is the word of God?

The contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin.

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical dtails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

CONCLUSION: The contents of the bible, its historical and scientific accuracy, its prophetic detail, as well as the practical benefits millions have drawn from applying its principles, convinces many that it is not just an exceptional book but, is what it claims to be, "the word of God".
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Post #21

Post by Kenisaw »

cnearing wrote: So, Tyre is an obvious example of a failed biblical prophecy (Nebuchadnezzar never razed nor sacked Tyre, and Tyre still stands, populated, today, contrary to the prophecy) but I don't doubt we could find others.
Daniel 11 predicts a war between Syria and Egypt that never happened. It also predicts that Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the Greek king of the Seleucid Empire) would die in Palestine. He died in Persia.

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Re: Fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of Bible's author

Post #22

Post by McCulloch »

1213 wrote:
McCulloch wrote: In chapter 26 to 28, Ezekiel predicted the total and permanent destruction of the city of Tyre. Today, you can travel to Tyre as Paul did as recorded in Acts 21.
Tyre seems to mean the coastal area near old city of Tyre that is still ruins, at least if we look at these pictures:
https://www.google.fi/search?q=ancient+ ... 66&bih=809

If modern people call some other place with same name than old city, it has really nothing to do with the fulfilled prophesy.
The apostle Paul modern?
1213 wrote:
McCulloch wrote:In chapter 29, Ezekiel predicted a forty year devastation and depopulation of Egypt at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar. Egypt has never had a forty year devastation. Nebuchadnezzar never conquered Egypt.
Bible says:
Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall carry off her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.
Eze. 29:19

It doesnt claim Egypt will be conquered, it says it will be robbed.

And about the desolation:
therefore, behold, I am against you, and against your rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from the tower of Seveneh even to the border of Ethiopia
I will make the land of Egypt a desolation in the midst of the countries that are desolate; and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be a desolation forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.

Eze. 29:10,12

Do you know what is the tower of Seveneh?

How do you know that Egyptians were not scattered 40 years?
A fair bit is known about Egyptian history from the time of Nebuchadnezzar to Caesar. There is no record of a forty year desolation. Nor is there a forty year gap in the record. There is no evidence of an Egyptian diaspora. Archaeologists and Egyptologists have looked. But, like the Flood and the Ezodus, this is an event that has left no forensic evidence.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Re: Fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of Bible's author

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

rikuoamero wrote: You're correct, the word Babylonians is not in verse 14.

However if one scrolls up the page to verse 7, one finds the following For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon,king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.

Are you suggesting that the Babylonians did NOT go up "against Tyre" as stated?
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Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Kenisaw wrote:Daniel 11 predicts ... that Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the Greek king of the Seleucid Empire) would die in Palestine. He died in Persia.
What verse are you refering to, I know of no verse in the bible that mentions Antiochus IV Epiphanes can you provide a reference please.

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Re: Fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of Bible's author

Post #25

Post by rikuoamero »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
rikuoamero wrote: You're correct, the word Babylonians is not in verse 14.

However if one scrolls up the page to verse 7, one finds the following For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon,king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.

Are you suggesting that the Babylonians did NOT go up "against Tyre" as stated?
I'm at a complete loss for words. I really am. My jaw is hanging open at the absolute ridiculousness of what it is you just said.
I correct what you said earlier, showing the verse that states that Babylon and its king are going to be brought up against Tyre...and for some reason beyond my comprehension you ask if I mean Babylon did not go against Tyre.
I honestly cannot remember from my history lessons if Neb ever attacked Tyre but it's existence today puts paid to the notion that Ezekiel 26 predicted the future.
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Re: Fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of Bible's author

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 25 by rikuoamero]

What exactly is your point. If you are suggesting there is some error in the biblical prophecy feel free to quote the exact words of the verse in question and then state the error therein.

Clarity of expression avoids confusion,

Regards,

JW
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Post #27

Post by cnearing »

Okay, so here is a breakdown of the alleged prophecy in Ezekiel 26:
1
In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me:
2
"Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,'
3
These lines set of the context of the prophecy, and outline the author's complaint against Tyre.
therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves.
Alright, so here's a bit of a prediction, but a pretty trivial one. That a wealthy city would be attacked by its neighbors, in the region, at the time of writing, is a safe bet. In some respects, this did indeed come true (though "many" is a bit of a stretch) but this is sufficiently vague, obvious that we can't really treat this as a "prophecy."
4
They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.
Okay, so here's something a bit more specific. Unfortunately, this part of the prophecy is also a clear failure. Tyre is not a bare rock. It hasn't been, at any point in its history. Its walls have been breached, and the city has been raze, once, by Alexander, but it has never been a "bare rock."

Chalk up one failure for our prophet, here.
5
Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations,
Well, she did become plunder for nations, though this again is kind of trivial to be considered a prophecy. The notion of a "place to spread fishnets" once again refers to this notion of the city being swept away and reduced to a "bare rock," which never happened.
6
and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
Okay, this did actually happen. Again, somewhat trivial, as this was expected for most city states at some point. Something important to note, here, though (which this line makes very clear) is that "Tyre" is the *island.* Not the mainland. Tyre was a city state, with the city proper located on the island. The "mainland settlements" need to be specified this way, because they are *not* what people meant when they said "Tyre." They were Tyre's external holdings.

[quote
7
"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar [1] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.
[/quote]

Okay, so Nebuchandezzar II did attack Tyre, with a pretty big army. Again, a pretty easy prediction to make--that the local empire builder would attack a wealthy nearby city state--but sure. This did happen.
8
He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you.
9
He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons.
We don't really have the details here, but this is all basically just what you'd expect if the Babylonian army sought to conquer Tyre.
10
His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through.
Here the author begins to go awry. In fact, Nebuchadnezzar did not breach the city, and did not conquer it. His army departed after accepting a tribute from Tyre.
11
The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground.
12
They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea.
Nebuchadnezzar did not raze or sack Tyre.
13
I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more.
Another misstep by the author. If you go to Tyre, you will hear their music.
14
I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.

Here is that same "bare rock" prophecy, again--a complete misstep compounded by the additional failed prophecy that Tyre would never be rebuilt.
15
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says to Tyre: Will not the coastlands tremble at the sound of your fall, when the wounded groan and the slaughter takes place in you?
When the Babylonian empire did, somewhat later, conquer Tyre, it probably did have a big impact on their coastal neighbors.
16
Then all the princes of the coast will step down from their thrones and lay aside their robes and take off their embroidered garments. Clothed with terror, they will sit on the ground, trembling every moment, appalled at you.
Eh? Who knows...
17
Then they will take up a lament concerning you and say to you: "How you are destroyed, O city of renown, peopled by men of the sea! You were a power on the seas, you and your citizens; you put your terror on all who lived there.

18
Now the coastlands tremble on the day of your fall; the islands in the sea are terrified at your collapse.'
There's nothing resembling a fulfilled prophecy here.
19
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you,

20
then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place [2] in the land of the living.

21
I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."
Here, the author doubles down again on this notion that Tyre would never again be inhabited--a clear mistake.


So, how'd "Ezekiel" (note that the works attributed to Ezekiel were most likely written by several different authors over the course of about a century, so it's not at all clear that this was actually written by Ezekiel at all) do?

Well, he said that Tyre would be attacked, and he got that right.

He said that Tyre would be attacked by Nebuchadnezzar, specifically, and he got that right.

He said that Tyre would be razed and sacked by Nebuchadnezzar, and he got that wrong.

He said that Tyre would be reduced to rubble, that the rubble would be swept away, leaving only bare rock, and that the city would never be rebuilt or reinhabited. He got all of that wrong.

So, when it came to the very easy, broad-strokes predictions, he was right. When it came to the important details, though, he was wrong.

That's why this is a failed prophecy.

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Post #28

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 27 by cnearing]

I'm not a big fan of repeating myself. I have already addressed these issues in my earlier series of posts. Feel free to consult them if you are so inclined.

LINK
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 896#868896


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Re: Fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of Bible's author

Post #29

Post by rikuoamero »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 25 by rikuoamero]

What exactly is your point. If you are suggesting there is some error in the biblical prophecy feel free to quote the exact words of the verse in question and then state the error therein.

Clarity of expression avoids confusion,

Regards,

JW
Consider cnearing's response to be my answer to your question.
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Post #30

Post by rikuoamero »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 27 by cnearing]

I'm not a big fan of repeating myself. I have already addressed these issues in my earlier series of posts. Feel free to consult them if you are so inclined.

LINK
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 896#868896


JW
With regard to what you say about uncertain or indefinite time there...do you regard as valid prophecies that are unclear, imprecise? Why couldn't God be clear and precise?
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I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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