Partial Universalism?

[liamconnor]

Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?


26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)

[Left Site]

Abraham was righteous, so Jesus did not die for the righteous, see Romans 5:6-10

Jesus paid the price in full for all sinners, and not even one (1) sinful sheep will be lost or left out. FYI.

Abraham was attributed a righteous status on the basis of his working faith. That was because the ransom atones the spiritual death brought by sin clear back to the beginning of the world.

That is just circumventing what I said - that Jesus died for the redemption of sinners and not for the righteous.

Based on that alone there is universal salvation for all of humanity, and yet there is so much more in the Bible that tells us that every person gets saved in due time.

Yet from the very beginning of scripture Abel presented the sacrifice of a lamb corresponding to the ransom supplied by Jesus' human life.

If what you say were true then Abraham would never have died: Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Romans 5:13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

There is sin like that which Adam committed and then there is sin caused of imperfection rather than a choosing of deliberate violation of God's commands. Never-the-less, sin is sin and the consequences of sin is death.

Galatians 3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Romans 4:3 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

How was Abraham's believing God able to be accounted as righteousness and why would he need to be accounted with righteousness if he were naturally righteous as you seem to be saying?

Romans 4:9 "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness."

But you are right that Jesus did not die for the righteous. There have been none who were righteous of themselves from since Adam and Eve sinned.

edit: Young's Literal translation - Isaiah 29:22a Therefore, thus said Jehovah, Who ransomed Abraham, ..

American Standard version - Psalms 34:22 Jehovah redeemeth the soul of his servants; And none of them that take refuge in him shall be condemned.

ransomed or redeemed " H6299 - padah -- pronounced: paw-daw' " a primitive root; to sever, i.e. ransom; gener. to release, preserve

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 19 by BusB]

I don't know if you can intellectualise it all really, the truth is revealed by God's grace in the end... this board has helped me a lot to see that logic and reasoning can only get you so far. I firmly believe however that one cannot find truth unless one believes it can exist; and its the human heart that refuses to stop looking for truth no matter how many times it gets slapped down.

This board has helped me appreciate knowing the truth, it is a precious privilege indeed.

JW

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 19 by BusB]

I don't know if you can intellectualise it all really, the truth is revealed by God's grace in the end... this board has helped me a lot to see that logic and reasoning can only get you so far. I firmly believe however that one cannot find truth unless one believes it can exist; and its the human heart that refuses to stop looking for truth no matter how many times it gets slapped down.

This board has helped me appreciate knowing the truth, it is a precious privilege indeed.

JW

Yes, in that sense academic education can be a two-edge sword, one way cutting positive bit the other way cutting negative.

What I said about being immune to human rejection in one of my earlier posts I should have stated differently. What I meant is that my faith has caused some to shun me. I have children who share my faith but I also have children who stand back far away from me because of my faith whether I speak to them about it or not.

Of course they should know by now that I don't speak to them about it out of respect for their request that I don't. Still they only visit with me at funerals or other social events that basically impose seeing me upon them. That hurt me deeply for a time but I have learned to accept that I was only ever their caretaker and it is not to me that they really belong.

I think about what Jehovah has gone through, put through it even by me for a time. But he doesn't feel sorrow over such rejection. He is as willing to let them refuse his help and own their own lives as he is willing to have compassion on them and to save them from sin.

[marco]

Jesus paid the price in full for all sinners, and not even one (1) sinful sheep will be lost or left out.

So the GOOD NEWS is for murderers and rapists. This is a remarkable theology which, though it makes little sense (a guy getting himself crucified so that a murderer can escape retribution) is generously more inclusive than telling 144,000 to come in and then the little guy in position 144,001 has the door slammed in his face (or hers or its.)

When Jesus spoke of goats and sheep, of chosen and rejected and narrow gates he just forgot that he was going to pick up the bill.

If it's true it will be wonderful, and the good news is we don't have to believe it to enjoy it. Hurrah!

[JP Cusick]

Never-the-less, sin is sin and the consequences of sin is death.

The consequence of sin is death = death to sin.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ

There are two (2) kinds of death as in the physical death of this life, and the second death is a spiritual death to sin.

Then Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Then 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The person dies to sin and gets saved as done by the fire of God, Hebrews 12:29.

So the Judgment Day is a second chance for every person, and the Father has already prepared to save every one.

[JP Cusick]

Jesus paid the price in full for all sinners, and not even one (1) sinful sheep will be lost or left out.

So the GOOD NEWS is for murderers and rapists. This is a remarkable theology which, though it makes little sense (a guy getting himself crucified so that a murderer can escape retribution)

It is a remarkable theology based on the concepts of "Love thy enemies" and on the "Forgiveness of sins" and it is fundamental Christianity = that God so loves the world that God saves humanity even while we are the worst of sinners.

... is generously more inclusive than telling 144,000 to come in and then the little guy in position 144,001 has the door slammed in his face (or hers or its.)

The 144,000 as told in the book of Revelations does not mean that there will only be 144,000 saved. ~ Certainly not.

Those 144k are just "the firstfruits" and "virgins" who make up a chorus to sing a new song, as it says that is there mission to learn a new song, because they sing without guile, see it here Revelation 14:3-5

When Jesus spoke of goats and sheep, of chosen and rejected and narrow gates he just forgot that he was going to pick up the bill.

If it's true it will be wonderful, and the good news is we don't have to believe it to enjoy it. Hurrah!

When people live sinful in this life - then in this life we suffer for our sins.

The sins have their punishments built into the sin, so people are punished by the sins.

To reject God is a sin, and so those who reject God are thereby punished by that sin by then living their life in ignorance and folly.

Whatsoever a person soweth, that they shall also reap.

[marco]

It is a remarkable theology based on the concepts of "Love thy enemies" and on the "Forgiveness of sins" and it is fundamental Christianity = that God so loves the world that God saves humanity even while we are the worst of sinners.

I suppose earthly destruction doesn't count. God so loved Sodom that he annihilated it. The usual statement that he so loved the world that he sent his "only begotten" son to be mutilated, tortured, and crucified is (for me) an odd way to see LOVE.

One might say: the son so loved his mother that he cut off her head. I think that amounts to the same sense.

The 144,000 as told in the book of Revelations does not mean that there will only be 144,000 saved. ~ Certainly not.

Those 144k are just "the firstfruits" and "virgins" who make up a chorus to sing a new song,

I'm afraid I feel physically sick when I read Revelation. I once asked a priest for his advice on the stuff and he thought it had been written by a drunk. However, it has somehow slipped into "respectability" so we must bite our lip and try to make sense of dragons, beasts and whatever other monsters feature.

When people live sinful in this life - then in this life we suffer for our sins.

Of course, of course the wicked are unhappy and the starving poor are euphoric. That's a shrewd observation. We shall see, as Milton said.

[Left Site]

[Replying to JP Cusick]

OK, I accept that to be what you believe.

How then does it matter what you or I believe at present?

[gordsd]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

The question of whether or not every single Jew will be saved or not according to the passage cited from Romans is an interesting one. Paul, in Romans, for the most part, is not concerned about prophecy concerning the plight of the People of Israel. He is primarily concerned with the well being of those souls in the church in Rome. Those in Rome whether Jewish converts or Gentile converts seem to be judging one another according to certain laws and regulations"many of which are connected to the Law of Moses. Salvation, for Paul, in the book of Romans, is not concerned about the judgment of the last day; rather, salvation is being freed from the legalistic mindset which comes from trusting in one's own righteousness according to the law.

For example, the book of Romans and the book of Revelation are two different books dealing with two different concepts"they are not related. Salvation in the book or Romans has to do with the way Christians live now/then"the condition of their/our soul now; Salvation in the book of Revelation has to do with a future day of judgment. The book of Romans is dealing with a painful problem in the churches of Rome: Christians judging each other according to the law"apart from the concept of faith by grace. Revelation is trying to give a church which is facing persecution hope.

This is plain by the passaged which you are discussing:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
As it is written:
See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame. (9;30-33).

What is the point? It is being saved from a false understanding of what constitutes righteousness in Gods eyes. All of Romans is a unit with one point: That those who believe are saved from the requirements of the law; those who are not freed from the law have a false understanding of righteousness by which they judge others. Those who indulge in judging are as those who indulge in promiscuity (Rom. 2:1). And, 2:1 is connected to 8:5"living and judging others is living in the flesh. Salvation according to Paul, here, is not pie in the sky; rather, it is a release from a life by the law into a life of the spirit (8:2-3). Chapters 9-11 are a description of a people who missed the boat"the life boat from a sinking ship. Saved from the judgmental attitude to love (Rom. 12:9-10). The reason Paul brings this up is because the Christians in Rome were falling into the same trap as the Hebrews. They made a big deal about circumcision (2:27) they judged each other according to days of worship (14:5) and what they ate (14:2).

My point is that salvation for the people of Israel"according to Paul in Romans--is salvation from the concept that salvation is by works, and he is applying the mistake of the People of Israel to the mistaken Christians in Rome. Whether or not who is or is not saved is beside the point"the important point is: have you discovered the life of faith and the spirit or are you still trying to earn your salvation and judging others as a consequence?

The passage quoted above-- And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)--it seems to me, is that many of the converted Jews in Rome still held that the People of Israel were the chosen people of God, so Paul is merely trying to answer the question he assumes they would have (9:19). To ask the question, seems to me beside the point, as I think it would be to Paul, but he answers it anyway out of respect for the Jewish converts.

[JP Cusick]

I suppose earthly destruction doesn't count. God so loved Sodom that he annihilated it.

The word "love" is not well defined in the English language, as virtually no one accepts any dictionary definition of love, and the Bible definition of love is fairly simple as being loyalty and fidelity.

As such according to the only accounts available the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were so sinful that they were in extreme suffering and when God destroyed those 2 cities it was an act of mercy killing to put them out of their misery.

Genesis 18:20 Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

And yet Jesus said they would have another chance = "It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment" per Matthew 10:15

The usual statement that he so loved the world that he sent his "only begotten" son to be mutilated, tortured, and crucified is (for me) an odd way to see LOVE.

One might say: the son so loved his mother that he cut off her head. I think that amounts to the same sense.

It is extreme and extraordinary yes, but not an odd way to show love.

As like some one jumps in the way of a speeding car to save a child playing in the street - it is sacrificing their self to save the child which is an act of love.

A grenade drops into the middle of a group of soldiers and one soldier jumps onto the grenade killing their self to save the other soldiers - thereby an act of self sacrifice for the love of others.

And the Gospel specifically declares that Jesus had the power to lay down His own life to be crucified and it was Jesus' own choice, and the Father loved Jesus for doing this great sacrifice, see John 10:17-18

The problem was not that Jesus had to make such a horrific sacrifice, because it was humanity and our being lost in our wicked sins which made that necessary.

I'm afraid I feel physically sick when I read Revelation. I once asked a priest for his advice on the stuff and he thought it had been written by a drunk. However, it has somehow slipped into "respectability" so we must bite our lip and try to make sense of dragons, beasts and whatever other monsters feature.

I get sick over the book of Revelation too, but you had a Priest tell you that it was just worthless junk so why not just believe the Priest? ~ and lots of other parts of the Bible are just junk too.

The entire Bible is not the word of God, and the Bible never claims to be the word of God, and in fact it is Jesus alone who is reported to be the word of God, meaning the speaker for God.

Our job is to distinguish truth from lies, which is why Jesus said = "Seek the truth" - because the truth has to be discovered.

When people live sinful in this life - then in this life we suffer for our sins.

Of course, of course the wicked are unhappy and the starving poor are euphoric. That's a shrewd observation. We shall see, as Milton said.

Every person - rich and poor, high or low, and even believers suffer in this life of sin and evil, so there are no exceptions.

The rich and famous try to display a life of happiness but it is never true and always a charade.

I found one odd thing about the super rich that they do not know what to do with their stacks of money, so many are forced into buying huge estates with extreme luxuries and they know that they are living vain and selfish and no way to relieve their own self condemnation - except to pretend otherwise.

When Bill and Melinda Gates started their huge charity foundation then that gave a lot of other rich people a way to get rid of their stacks of loot too, and yet still they fall short of relieving the self condemnation of the very rich.

This is an ironic life indeed.