Paradise on Earth

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:25 am

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

tam · Post by **tam** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:06 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:Just for clarity sake my full quote was this:

But not if it meant that we would never [...] be near Him

Why do you keep clipping my quote, lol?

REVELATION 21:2, 3
I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.

So you think that when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and "the tent of God" ("the dwelling place of God") is with mankind we won't be "near" him?

Why would I think that?

It is stated right there that God will be with mankind.
States right there also that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. Christ is in the Holy City; just as the Tree of Life is in the center of the Garden of Eden (Paradise), which will come down from heaven and be upon the earth.

But I am not the one who continues to insist that Christ (and the Holy City) does not leave heaven. This is something that the JW religion DOES teach. That the 144 000 and Christ remain in and rule from heaven; and that the 'great crowd' remains upon the earth.

Perhaps you do not believe that, but that is the official stance, yes?

Is God's spirit not everywhere? If that is true now, how much more so when the new Jerusalem descends? Was Jesus not near God when he was on earth? Isn't God in the hearts of believers? How much nearer can he be?

Well, Christ can literally be here with us, on the earth, or in heaven, or both. That is the promise. That is what we are waiting for. For Him to come and gather us up to Him, to be united with Him, to be with Him forever.

I know the WTS teaches this hope... which is different than the earthly hope. Yes? So I'm not sure how you can ask me 'how much nearer can he be?" when your religion teaches that He can and will be nearer to at least 144 000 people.

Have I misunderstood?

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

tam · Post by **tam** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:16 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote: Okay, so you believe that it is at least possible that those on the earth will hear His voice?

(Do you believe that it is possible for His sheep to hear His voice even now?)
I don't see any reason to believe we will not; as I said, the bible makes not definite statement about this one way or the other but we do have the example of the Perfect man Adam's relationship with his Father in the garden of Eden as an indication of what may be a future blessing in paradise: direct communication with our Creator.

The voice came from the invisible, the unseen realm, and it was addressing him. It was the voice of the mans Maker, his Creator! And the man could answer him in the same kind of speech. He found himself talking with God, the Creator. The man needed no modern scientific radio receiver to hear the divine voice. God conversed with him directly as his creature."

- Watchtower 1989 August 1st, page 11 para 7

Thank you. I think I have seen you state something to this effect elsewhere.

And of course that makes sense. If we can hear Him now, why would we not also hear Him then?

That is one reason it has always thrown me for a loop when some have said that He will not directly speak then, and people will instead have to keep on learning from the Bible or scrolls.

We won't even need anyone to bear witness to Him. He will be here; people will see Him, hear Him, know Him. The things that He has promised - such as His return - will have happened.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:27 pm

[Replying to post 652 by tam]

You're most welcome.

I think it might however be and idea for you to go back and read my second paragraph.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 736#874736

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:37 pm

tam wrote:States right there also that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. Christ is in the Holy City; just as the Tree of Life is in the center of the Garden of Eden (Paradise), which will come down from heaven and be upon the earth.[/b]

Well if you are in heaven then you will not be able to "be" with them will you? Or are you saying Jehovah's Witnesses are right and the paradise is in fact on earth? In which case what is the problem?

If Jesus is living on the earth but God is livng in heaven and yet with that "distance" between them they are still close/near/in an intimate relationship. Then it should work the other way round too no? One partie in heaven one partie on earth but still "together".

If Jesus and you are on earth and God is in heaven (see above)

Now I must admit I don't know what you personally believe (God on earth? Jesus on eart? everyone in heaven? God in heaven? Jesus travelling between heaven and earth? Everyone travelling between heaven and earth?... I get the opinions of people - and indeed the people - here on this forum mixed up and for that I apologize...) but whatever the combination I hazard a guess at some point someone is on earth and someoone is in heaven ... and yet they are both still "near" to each other.

Do you see the point? Closeness, nearness, a relationship, intimacy with God or Jesus isn't a matter of location, its a matter of heart

JW

tam · Post by **tam** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:05 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 652 by tam]

You're most welcome.

I think it might however be and idea for you to go back and read my second paragraph.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 736#874736

Okay.

[
quote]tam wrote:
(Do you believe that it is possible for His sheep to hear His voice even now?)
Anything is "possible" and I would not presume upon the Almighty, but God or Jesus conversing with individuals was extremely rare in scripture and exclusively with the Prophets in their role in the development and progression of Divine will and purpose.

[/quote]

Did God not also speak to Cain?

And do you suppose that the reason many did not hear is because they did not want to hear? (Hence, Israel asked Moses to intercede for them, to speak to God and tell them the will of God - just as Christ intercedes for us? Just as Israel could hear Moses, we can hear Christ) Or because they hardened their hearts?(Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts...)

Christ said that His sheep would hear His voice.

After the establishment of the Christian congregation and the recording of the divine will in scripture the "bible" servants of God would be "completely equipt" with all they would thereafter need, so such miraclous imparting of "knowledge" would as Paul explained "cease" (see 1 Cor 13:8; 2 Tim 3:17).

Those verses do not state what you just said.

I addressed them on this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=32799&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

My belief is that anyone claiming to hear a literal voice from the spirit realm today should at the very least ask themself why in view of the fact that Jesus and the Apostles have fully established the Christian congregation and proven it to be the "Israel of God", what scripturally their Prophetic role could possibly be (ie what did Jesus and the Apostles fail to do that they have been chosen to improve on) and at the most should seriously examine the possibility of demonic contact and/or mental health issues.

That is one loaded question, lol.

Why would He speak to His sheep?

He loves them of course. He said He would speak to them and call them by name (how else would they be able to listen to His voice?). He is the Living Word of God. Why would a Living Word not speak? He is a living person. Most living people speak (unless they have some flaw that prevents them from speaking; which is not the case with Christ).

We do have examples of Him speaking to more than just the apostles, yes? He spoke to Paul and to Ananias.

He would also speak to His sheep so as to send them to someone He wished to send them to. He would speak to them so as to give them the words HE means for them to speak. He would also speak to them so as to answer any questions that they might have.

Why would our Teacher not speak to us and teach us?

He is capable of speaking. He said His sheep would listen to His voice. We have multiple examples of Him speaking to His sheep (and not just the apostles). Not one single example or word from Him ever states that He would stop speaking to His sheep.

So, well, there you go.

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:13 pm

tam wrote:according to your teachings as I have read from some of you, the people resurrected to live on the earth will be taught from the bible... and/or from new scrolls.

tam wrote:Yes... at the resurrection of the dead; scrolls will be opened (including the Lamb's book of life) and the dead will be judged according to their deeds as recorded in those scrolls.

We indeed have a difference of opinion of the use and the content of these scrolls but I got the impression you had a problem with the Jehovah's Witnesses teaching of their very existence, saking as you did ...

tam wrote:But why would there be any need for such things when that which is complete has come?

We will have to wait and see as to which of us are more accurate as to what exactly is in them and how they will be used, but I believe we can agree that God evidently sees there will be a need for them.

JW

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:23 pm

tam wrote:
My belief is that anyone claiming to hear a literal voice from the spirit realm today should at the very least ask themself why in view of the fact that Jesus and the Apostles have fully established the Christian congregation and proven it to be the "Israel of God", what scripturally their Prophetic role could possibly be (ie what did Jesus and the Apostles fail to do that they have been chosen to improve on) and at the most should seriously examine the possibility of demonic contact and/or mental health issues.
That is one loaded question

That was not a "question" of any description, it was a statement. (You can usuallly identify questions by the placement of a "question mark" --> [?] at the end of the sentence)

I don't believe Jesus words of his sheep hearing his voice should be taken literally.

JW

tam · Post by **tam** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:26 pm

[Replying to post 654 by JehovahsWitness]

Do you see the point? Closeness, nearness, a relationship, intimacy with God or Jesus isn't a matter of location, its a matter of heart

Isn't that kind of 'nearness' what His Body has with Him even now? And this is amazing. But I am longing to be with Him in person, to meet Him, for Him to return, to gather us up, etc. This is our hope, our faith. Who hopes for what he already has?

Did Paul not also describe holy spirit as a deposit of things promised?

What was Paul looking forward to when He longed to be with the Lord, and when He said that we (those gathered to Christ upon His return) would be with the Lord forever?

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:29 pm

tam wrote: [Replying to post 654 by JehovahsWitness]

Do you see the point? Closeness, nearness, a relationship, intimacy with God or Jesus isn't a matter of location, its a matter of heart
Isn't that kind of 'nearness' what His Body has with Him even now? And this is amazing.

I believe it is yes. That is possible due to the holy spirit and location distance does not weaken or dilute it. Our problem is not location our problem is sin, and once that is removed, we will enjoy the closest of relationships with our maker, whereever he may be.

JOHN 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:33 pm

tam wrote: But I am longing to be with Him in person, to meet Him, for Him to return, to gather us up, etc. This is our hope, our faith. Who hopes for what he already has?

That is fine, I have no comment to make about your desires, that is your personal private business and yours alone. I do not share that hope or that desire. Do you feel at liberty to judge me for that? My hope is to live on paradise on earth; that is my calling, do you mind?

JW