Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[tam]

[Replying to post 635 by tam]


That said, returning to the topic at hand, I think that humans can live forever and be happy on the earth.

I agree that we could be...

But not if it meant that we would never hear the voice of our Lord ... speak with Him.

Didn't Jesus and John hear the voice of our Lord when he was baptized. Didn't Adam converse with God himself in the garden of Eden having a detailed conversation with Him?

Is there any reason to believe that humans will never hear the voice of our Lord in paradise if it were on earth?

Of course not.

But this is not what your paradise earth will be, according to your teachings, at least not that I have read from some of you on this forum. I also spoke with a JW couple for a few months last year. I was truly shocked when I realized that they expected to NEVER hear the voice of Christ. I could not even respond. How could they be looking forward to an eternity where they will never hear the voice of the One they claim to love? Never be spoken to by Him; never be able to speak WITH Him?

Instead, according to your teachings as I have read from some of you, the people resurrected to live on the earth will be taught from the bible... and/or from new scrolls.

But why would there be any need for such things when that which is complete has come? When the promises have been fulfilled? When Christ has returned as He said He would? Why would anyone need to learn from the bible when they would have the Truth and King, Himself, and could truly KNOW Him, learn from Him, see Him, hear Him?



Just for clarity sake my full quote was this:

But not if it meant that we would never hear the voice of our Lord, or be near Him, or see Him, meet Him, speak with Him. Some of us long to be with Him wherever He is.


The destination would not matter to me in the least - as long as He was there with me.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you Rightreason!

[Replying to tam]

Hi Tam, I want to preface my response to your post that I am typing this prior to my way to mass (THE most important thing I do) and am crunched for time. If we were having this discussion say at a BBQ, I would exchange more pleasantries. I would probably acknowledge what you, Onewithin, and I have in common – our love for God. But one of the nice things about these internet exchanges is that we can get right to the point. So please don’t take my quick and perhaps blunt responses personally – it is simply business. As someone passionate about these topics, I’m hoping you can understand.

I do understand. No worries at all.

What? No! They're BOTH liars. Why would you listen to either one of them?

I think your analogy is a really bad analogy. It would make more sense to say we should listen to our mothers because they have been put in charge of us, given the authority and power, promised to take care of us and guide us in all truth.

My Lord reminds me of His words here:

“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." Matt 10:37

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26


He also said:

“If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." John 14:23

The one who loves ME will keep MY commands. John 14:15, and also 14:21


The WTS teaches the vast majority of her people NOT to eat or drink the body and blood of Christ. Even though Christ said TO eat and TO drink; and that unless one does this one has no life in oneself. Her children listen to her teaching, but not to His teaching.


From the RCC, one example would be the inquisition: everything about that is against the commands of Christ to love even one's enemies, to turn the other cheek, etc. Where did Christ ever command (in word OR deed) that one should order or take part in such a thing. Yet those in 'her' obeyed the RCC, and not Christ.



**

Do you truly believe that Christ would appoint over HIS BODY (HIS SHEEP) anyone who would teach His sheep to obey them over Him?


Who do we truly love?

Is Christ not the One we have been given to listen to? Is Christ not the One we have been told to follow? Is Christ not the TRUTH?

But what does Christ say? If you trust Jesus, you need to trust His Church because He is the one who said, “He who hears you, hears me. . . “ “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I build my church� That’s why! Disrespecting Christ’s Church is disrespecting Christ – He told us so.

Christ says, 'If anyone loves me, they will keep MY word."

Christ says, "The One who keeps MY commands is the One who loves ME."

Did Paul not confront Peter when Peter erred? When men (who were following Peter, but who should have been listening to Christ) erred with Peter?

Indeed Christ commanded this to His apostles (which means it is also a command to any of us):

"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded YOU."


"Come. Follow ME!"

He doesn't just teach 'less errors'. He teaches NO errors. HE is the one who will lead us into ALL truth.

Not what He says. He told us to listen to the church and that He would guide the church in all truth. Did you miss that in your Scripture?

Do you hear what you said?

HE will guide us (His Church) into all truth. HE will guide us. His Church (made of people) are to listen to Him and be guided by Him.

Unless a person does not consider themselves to be part of His church?

Because if one is (part of) His Church, then HE is the one who guides that one into all truth.

HE builds His church upon Himself. He is the rock; He is the cornerstone, He is the TRUTH. His church is made up of the members of His Body; His Bride... and she listens to Him.

This is actually an error in understanding and probably a topic for another thread, but the correct interpretation and only conclusion to make from Sacred Scripture is that He actually built His Church giving Peter the power as the first Pope.

This is actually an error in understanding...

No doubt men built a church on Peter. That doesn't mean that Peter directed that and it certainly doesn't mean that Christ directed that.

Christ builds His church upon Himself (the Rock, the cornerstone, the foundation of our faith), using the FAITH that Peter showed (believing when God revealed to him that his Lord was the Messiah).

But Peter was not the first among the apostles to show this faith; nor was he appointed first among the apostles. There is no first among the apostles.

He gave His Church the power to forgive sins.

Yes. But that does not mean that the RCC is that Church.

That comes straight from the mouth of Jesus.

Never claimed otherwise.

Scripture is very clear that Christ intended a visible, earthly, literal church.

I'm not sure what you think that translates into... but people (which His church is made of) are visible, on the earth, and literal.

Scripture tells us the Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

I agree with you that scripture is not the 'pillar and foundation of Truth'. But is not Christ the Truth?

Is He built on His church or is His church built on Him?

God recognizes that we need an earthly shepherd and that we must be united in our faith.

Christ is our shepherd. His sheep listen to His voice. His sheep are united in Him.


As is also written: there is one mediator between man and God. Christ is that mediator. There is no mediator that we must come to, who is between man and Christ.

I’m sorry but I often have little patience for the “All I need is me and Jesus� camp. It is simply unscriptural!

If the choice were between walking in the wilderness with Christ - or - returning to Egypt and enslavement, I will choose Christ and the wilderness. He is the One who will lead me (and the rest of His Body) through the wilderness and to the promised land.

Egypt already proved that 'she' cannot save anyone, not even herself.


As for numbers, if we are to believe Christ, He said:

For many are called, but FEW are chosen.

"Narrow is the path to life and FEW are those who find it."

I imagine the RCC was not a beacon of light to the children who have been abused (physically, emotionally, sexually, spiritually) in and by her

Nor do I, nor is sexual abuse a teaching of the Catholic Church. We all know that families and school teachers can be a beautiful light to the world and we can say that even though we also know that families and teachers can be guilty of sexual abuse. A contradiction? Hardly.

I never said it was a teaching of the RCC. I merely stated that the RCC was not a beacon of light to such ones (or any of the others in that list, and some of those things WERE commanded by the RCC), in contrast to your words that the RCC has always been a beacon of light.

I cannot imagine the RCC was (or is) a beacon of light to any of these people.

Good thing you aren’t God. He is kind and merciful and full of forgiveness and often chooses the least likely among us to be His messengers.

What does that have to do with my words?

I don’t care where God wants me to be as long as I can be with Him.

Bingo right back to you, dear RR!



Thank you for your wish of peace, and as always, peace to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 641 by tam]

Firstly I don't believe you provided a reference as to any official published statements on whetther we will hear the voice of God in paradise; I am very well read on the official statements from the Watchtower society but if you would like to educate me with a reference one way or the other feel free; otherwise I shall ignore your statement as unfounded; for the time being it will simply be dismissed.

I cannot comment on other person's beliefs on this matter and since the bible doesn't say one way or the other, everyone is entitled to their opinion, mine of which I shared. If you wish to discuss another couples beliefs on this, I suggest you contact them and seek further exchange. Personally I try to restrict my comments about belief to my own; feel free to ask me for further details about what *I* believe if you feel so inclined.





JW

[JehovahsWitness]

according to your teachings as I have read from some of you, the people resurrected to live on the earth will be taught from the bible... and/or from new scrolls.

REVELATION 20:12
"and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works"- Young's Literal Translation

But why would there be any need for such things when that which is complete has come?

Ask God, He's the one that had the above recorded in the bible (Revelation 20:12). If you doubt there is a need for these "scrolls" question God or Jesus not me.


JW

[tam]

[Replying to post 643 by JehovahsWitness]

I do not mean to presume to tell you what you believe; I said "from what I have learned of your (general JWs) beliefs"... which I have learend from what some of you have written upon this site, and from what others have said in person.


By all means, please correct me if I am mistaken.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 643 by JehovahsWitness]

I do not mean to presume to tell you what you believe; I said "from what I have learned of your (general JWs) beliefs"...

I have addressed this point. See above.

Anything else?

[tam]

Peace to you JW,

according to your teachings as I have read from some of you, the people resurrected to live on the earth will be taught from the bible... and/or from new scrolls.

REVELATION 20:12
"and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works"- Young's Literal Translation

Yes... at the resurrection of the dead; scrolls will be opened (including the Lamb's book of life) and the dead will be judged according to their deeds as recorded in those scrolls.


These are not scrolls that they are learning from. These are scrolls that have recorded their works. Which they are being judged from.


I do not wish to presume, so did you mean to state something other than that?


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Just for clarity sake my full quote was this:

But not if it meant that we would never [...] be near Him

REVELATION 21:2, 3
I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.

So you think that when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and "the tent of God" ("the dwelling place of God") is with mankind we won't be "near" him? Is God's spirit not everywhere? If that is true now, how much more so when the new Jerusalem descends? Was Jesus not near God when he was on earth? Isn't God in the hearts of believers? How much nearer can he be?

2 TIMOTHY 4:17
But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me, so that through me the proclamation would be fully accomplished, and all the Gentiles should hear.

[tam]

[Replying to post 646 by JehovahsWitness]

Okay, so you believe that it is at least possible that those on the earth will hear His voice?

(Do you believe that it is possible for His sheep to hear His voice even now?)




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Okay, so you believe that it is at least possible that those on the earth will hear His voice?

I don't see any reason to believe we will not; as I said, the bible makes not definite statement about this one way or the other but we do have the example of the Perfect man Adam's relationship with his Father in the garden of Eden as an indication of what may be a future blessing in paradise: direct communication with our Creator.

The voice came from the invisible, the unseen realm, and it was addressing him. It was the voice of the man’s Maker, his Creator! And the man could answer him in the same kind of speech. He found himself talking with God, the Creator. The man needed no modern scientific radio receiver to hear the divine voice. God conversed with him directly as his creature."

- Watchtower 1989 August 1st, page 11 para 7

(Do you believe that it is possible for His sheep to hear His voice even now?)

Anything is "possible" and I would not presume upon the Almighty, but God or Jesus conversing with individuals was extremely rare in scripture and exclusively with the Prophets in their role in the development and progression of Divine will and purpose. After the establishment of the Christian congregation and the recording of the divine will in scripture the "bible" servants of God would be "completely equipt" with all they would thereafter need, so such miraclous imparting of "knowledge" would as Paul explained "cease" (see 1 Cor 13:8; 2 Tim 3:17).

My belief is that anyone claiming to hear a literal voice from the spirit realm today should at the very least ask themself why in view of the fact that Jesus and the Apostles have fully established the Christian congregation and proven it to be the "Israel of God", what scripturally their Prophetic role could possibly be (ie what did Jesus and the Apostles fail to do that they have been chosen to improve on) and at the most should seriously examine the possibility of demonic contact and/or mental health issues.

Not necessarily in that order,


JW