What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?

[jgh7]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 40 by BusB]

Well to be fair Paul isn't speaking about the earthly class at all. I just pointed out that in its fullest sense for adamic death to be eliminated entirely it would no longer have to exist (whether for the earthly class or the heavenly).

In Corinthians Paul is speaking of those that will be ressurrected to heavenly life; rewarded with immortality in heaven. Those 144,000 will die as humans and be resurrected as incorruptable and immortal spirits. Death as Paul said will no longer have any power over them.

[JehovahsWitness]

2 Corinthians 5: 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, [which contrasts the present house of God made by hands]> a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.

How do you explain this verse since you said to me you don't think anyone (apart from Jesus) goes to heaven?

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 40 by BusB]

Well to be fair Paul isn't speaking about the earthly class at all. I just pointed out that in its fullest sense for adamic death to be eliminated entirely it would no longer have to exist (whether for the earthly class or the heavenly).

In Corinthians Paul is speaking of those that will be ressurrected to heavenly life; rewarded with immortality in heaven. Those 144,000 will die as humans and be resurrected as incorruptable and immortal spirits. Death as Paul said will no longer have any power over them.

OK, but as you said, the death which is being done away with is adimic death.

That adimic death is done away for all of us who reach perfection by the end of the thousand years, isn't it?

[Left Site]

2 Corinthians 5: 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, [which contrasts the present house of God made by hands]> a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.

Before sin, this earth was but one of the many abodes of the spiritual heaven, not then cut apart and separated from it.

The model of that earth God purposed to be lingers with God in heaven similar to how God is a God, not of the dead, but of the living.

We see that principle manifested in the Bibles use of the word, "soul." We know that the soul does die, yet it is spoken of as if yet alive to God in places like, Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 44 by BusB]

Are you saying that when Paul expressed a hope to be "in heaven" he is speaking about the earth? You believe "in heaven" can indeed mean literally in the spiritual realm, why do you conclude there are zero instances in scripture, when this same expression can apply to anyone but Jesus?

We know Jesus did speak of going to heaven in the sense of literally being in the spirit realm, and at the same time promised his Apostles would be "with him" why can we say that his promises to his Apostles cannot be understood in a similar way to the way Jesus himself expected to be with the Father, ie literally in heaven in his company?

In short, I'm sure you agree...

"in heaven" can be literally with God in the spirit realm.
"With" God can be literally in heaven in the spirit realm.

It was the case for Jesus, why, in the light of John 14:3-8 (see below) can the above under no circumstance apply to the Apostles?

John 14:2-8 (NIV)
My Fathers house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 44 by BusB]

Are you saying that when Paul expressed a hope in connection with "heaven" he is speaking about the earth?

He was speaking about the better (or first) resurrection.

Think about it, "the rest of the dead not coming to life until the end of the thousand years is not speaking about those of the great crowd in the new earth being literally dead until then. They are spiritually yet dead, yet awaiting their salvation in Christ. It is a similar scenario.

Meeting the Lord in the aiir is not literal, either. Right now the governments of man are said to have a ruling heaven from which they rule. but they are not in a literal heaven. They rule by the power of a heaven where Satan is the authority of the air. When the elect in Christ meet him in the air Satan is abyssed, the wicked kings of this earth are cast out of that symbolic ruling heaven, and it is changed to a righteous symbolic ruling heaven where Christ is the prince of the authority of the air. And he is the etrernal king of kings and Lord of lords. Those kings and lords are right here on earth.

At least that is what seems to make the most sense to me without contradicting scripture.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 46 by BusB]

Did you see the rest of my post above #45? It had some other questions.

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 46 by BusB]

Did you see the rest of my post above #45? It had some other questions.

There is a bit of both the literal and symbolic and that is a part of what makes it so difficult to understand.

Christ said that the word he spoke would be what would judge men in the last day. John 12:48

Think about that as compared to the earth being said to be judged by a man:

Acts 17: 31 "Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.

How is it possible that the earth be judged by a man and yet Jesus does not come back to live on earth as a man?

It is because this is speaking spiritually. The man who Jesus was has a symbolic spirit which yet lives and has power in the lives of those whom he taught and then they taught it to yet others, keeping that spirit living. And so it really is his word that will judge us in the last day, even as Jesus said at John 12:48.

Jesus need not come back literally to this earth. So long as his body of elect are here his spirit lives on, in and through them, that it is like Jesus the man is yet among us where he can do that judging.

For that to remain true, his body of elect must remain here. What is happening to those who think they literally go to live in heaven is failure to understand the spiritual symbolic language.

Edit: Please understand that none of this highlights JWs to be a false religion in my mind. We believe in advancing light because the Scriptures speak of it and because we can look back at the congregation of God to see how in some things they had to progressively grow in understanding.

These things test us and make us stronger if we let them. We do not desert those we know to be sincerely trying. We instead work for the unity and edification of the body all during this process of growth.

It is not at all surprising we yet have some refinements to go through before it is all said and done.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 46 by BusB]

Did you see the rest of my post above #45? It had some other questions.

There is a bit of both the literal and symbolic and that is a part of what makes it so difficult to understand.

I would agree, so is there anything to STOP John 14:2-8 (which is the scripture in the post which you are responding to) to be taken to mean that the Apostles would literally be with Jesus in the spirit realm?

[liamconnor]

I think it is obvious that the answer is Pi.