Required vow of obedience?

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tam
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Required vow of obedience?

Post #1

Post by tam »

May you have peace!

From another thread:
Why take the vows of obedience to Jehovah's visible organization on Earth and then refute those vows?

The organization in question requires this vow at baptism.

I have asked this question before and I don't recall receiving a response, but:

What right does this organization (or any other sect or denomination) have to require their members to first vow obedience to them, to begin with? Who or what gave them that right?

Christ?

Did He instruct anyone to require this (vow of obedience to them) at baptism?



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your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #31

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to post 30 by tam]

The question is a trap. In answering either yes or no validates that a person can choose who Christ's congregation is based on their own opinion. A person can't say that the JW organization was not the body of Christ and it be true just because that is what they feel. A person saying a group isn't the Body of Christ its not that they 'understand' its that they decided on their own what is and isn't the Body of Christ. Their 'understanding' is making themselves the judge as to who Jesus' congregation is or isn't. When it is Jesus who decides such things.

Rather than use the word 'understands' how about the word proven?

So the question should be, "If it is proven that the JW organization was not the Body of Christ and therefore not from God - then they would be breaking no vows by leaving that organization and instead following Christ? "

If it was proven then a person leaving the organization wouldn't be breaking their vow to God. It would have to be proven in the way that they are the opposite in every way that Jesus said we would know his disciples. (John 13:34, 35)

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Post #32

Post by tam »

2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 30 by tam]

The question is a trap. In answering either yes or no validates that a person can choose who Christ's congregation is based on their own opinion. A person can't say that the JW organization was not the body of Christ and it be true just because that is what they feel.


Does one not enter that organization based upon their belief (their understanding) that this organization is from Christ?
A person saying a group isn't the Body of Christ its not that they 'understand' its that they decided on their own what is and isn't the Body of Christ.
Is that not also how they entered?
Their 'understanding' is making themselves the judge as to who Jesus' congregation is or isn't.
Is that not what they did when they entered?
When it is [Jesus] who decides such things.
Agreed.
Rather than use the word 'understands' how about the word proven?
Sure.

But proven in what way? And to whom?

Everyone?

I think we can agree that just because many people believe something is proven, does not mean that it truly is proven. Or even that it is true.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #33

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote:So if a person came to understand that the JW organization was not the Body of Christ - and therefore not from God - then they would be breaking no vows by leaving that organization and instead following Christ?
Well if they came to that "understanding" they would be wrong. And yes, if they were dedicated baptized Witnesses they would be breaking their vow to Jehovah, since that vow incurrs loyalty to Christ the king and since Christ is the head of the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses; they would be leaving Christ; I think I made it clear, to follow Christ one must stay with the "body of Christ".

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #34

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 30 by tam]

The question is a trap. In answering either yes or no validates that a person can choose who Christ's congregation is based on their own opinion. A person can't say that the JW organization was not the body of Christ and it be true just because that is what they feel.


Does one not enter that organization based upon their belief (their understanding) that this organization is from Christ?
A person saying a group isn't the Body of Christ its not that they 'understand' its that they decided on their own what is and isn't the Body of Christ.
Is that not also how they entered?
I hope not. Because if they did it has been my experience (and the Bible also says) that they will not stick around in that religion if they entered based solely on their understanding. Truth is not about what we think we understand.

The Bible says, “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.� (Prov. 3:5, 6)

Note it says take notice of God, how He deals with things and how He upholds His standards not ours. It is how He makes our paths straight and not the path we think we understand based on our own hearts.

Anything built on the understanding of the 'creature' and not the creator will end up not serving God. Paul warned the Romans of some that had fallen into this trap, "They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever." Romans 1:25

One might ask, 'How can we take notice of God'? I'd personally recommend first studying the Bible.

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Post #35

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:So if a person came to understand that the JW organization was not the Body of Christ - and therefore not from God - then they would be breaking no vows by leaving that organization and instead following Christ?
Well if they came to that "understanding" they would be wrong. And yes, if they were dedicated baptized Witnesses they would be breaking their vow to Jehovah, since that vow incurrs loyalty to Christ the king and since Christ is the head of the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses; they would be leaving Christ; I think I made it clear, to follow Christ one must stay with the "body of Christ".

JW

Therefore (and without agreeing with your claims here), the words I quoted in the OP DO represent the understanding that jws have of baptism:

"Why take the vows of obedience to Jehovah's visible organization on Earth and then refute those vows?"



So why all the song and dance?

Why not just answer the questions that I asked in the OP (if you wished to participate in this thread)?

Questions in post 26 (related to the questions in the OP) still stand.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #36

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote:I am speaking about the organization that requires a declaration. Two declarations in fact.
QUESTION: Is asking baptism candidates questions unscriptural?

There are those that suggest that the very act of asking baptism candidates questions is something sinful, unscriptural or inappropriate and even go so far as to imply this violates scriptural law or principle. The reality is however that such ones, like the Pharisees are, by attempting to micromanage what, when are where questions are asked, imposing unbibilcal restrictions that are nowhere to be found in the bible.

tam wrote: Did Peter ask these questions of Cornelius and each member of his household?

We don't know for sure, perhaps Peter did; evidently there was conversation prior to the actual baptism. It seems reasonable to conclude that not everything that was said on the occassion is recorded. In any case what we do know is Peter asked everyone (which would have included the baptism candidates) in attendence a public question regarding Cornelius' meeting the requirements for baptism. Was a question asked of each member of his household as a requirement of baptism? Possibly, we cannot say but what we CAN say is that there is no scriptural prohibition on asking the candidates questions.
tam wrote: Did Phillip ask these questions of the Ethiopian Eunuch?
As in the case of Peter we do not know. As in the case of Peter there was evidently conversation (which involves both parties speaking, possibly asking and answering question) between the eunuch and Phillip. prior to the actual baptism. As in the case of Peter the were is a record of at least one question asked prior to the baptism. Did Phillip ask these questions of the Ethiopian Eunuch as a requirement of baptism? Possibly, we don't know. Does the fact that we don't know prohibit asking the question now? No! As in the case of Peter there is absolutely no biblical principle that is would have been violated by asking the candidate to admit to their position if he did. And the same is true today.
tam wrote: Did Christ direct anyone to ask these questions when He told his disciples to go and make disciples?
Christ instructed his disciples to teach and make disciples. Teaching involves speaking and gaining information from the student in order to know how to better instruct them. A teacher gains information about his student by asking QUESTIONS.
A Christian disciple is someone that conforms to the teaching on Christ. Since unlike God one cannot read the hearts of potential disciples, questions must be an implicit part of Jesus' instruction to teach and make disciples. Implicit in Jesus' instruction found at Matthew 28:19, 20 is that they baptise people who were disciples, believers, individuals that accepted Jesus and were willing to dedicate their lives to his Father. The disciples would not know if this were the case unless they asked potential disciple questions. Jesus put no restrictions on where or when these questions (which are a self evident part of being a teacher) should be asked.

Indeed, Jesus' ministry was FULL of him asking people questions and given the above, it is more than reasonable to conclude that he wante questions to be a feature of both the teaching and disciple making process.
CONCLUSION To imply that asking baptism candidates question is wrong, sinful or unscriptural is going beyond scripture and represents a restriction that reminds us of the Pharisees who believed they needed to ADD their arbitary restrictions to God's word? Those that like the Pharisees like to say "You cannot ask this", "Its wrong to say that" when the bible provides no such restriction are doing so in opposition to the bible principles and pattern regarding teaching, dedication and baptism as outlined in the bible.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:23 am, edited 15 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #37

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote:The point is also somewhat moot that the original declaration is private, since it must be made public in order to be baptized into your organization.
So if someone says something in private, admitting to it in public devalues or invalidates it? If a man tells his woman he loves her and wants to spend the rest of his life with her in private and later they announce this to her parents they want to marry, when the girls father asks "Do you love my daughter" and the young man says "Yes, I do" his private declaration of love to the woman is invalidated? And if during the wedding ceremony he is asked again if he is resolved to love and cherish her and he replies "Yes" he has invalidated all that came before? Does that sound logical to you?

While a person's dedication vow is made privately in prayer to Jehovah, living up to that vow will have an impact on their future course and interaction with others. Like marriage the baptism ceremony is public and intimately tied in to their dedication. It is most fitting therefore during the ceremony to ensure that the seriousness of the step is fully understood.
tam wrote:
Christians see no reason not to admit what they have done if they are asked; the Christian elders, biblically charged to oversee (survey and safeguard) the congregation, see it fitting to ask.
Why do they see it fitting to ask?
The answer is in the quote. Please read it again more carefully.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #38

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 37 by JehovahsWitness]

The information that you provided does not answer the direct questions that I asked.

These are my questions (somewhat reformed to avoid the song and dance):

What right does this organization (or any other sect or denomination) have to require their members vow obedience to them?

Who or what gave them that right?

Christ?

Did He instruct anyone to require this at baptism?

Did Peter ask these questions of Cornelius and each member of his household as a requirement of baptism? Did Phillip ask these questions of the Ethiopian Eunuch as a requirement of baptism? Did Christ direct anyone to ask these questions as a requirement of baptism when He told his disciples to go and make disciples?

**

So the baptismal dedication is supposed to be understood as saying that one must obey the organization that they have 'associated' themselves with.


May I ask then where Christ said that we are to make such a dedication?

Note that such refers to the comment in red.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy


(edited to add the bold above in an attempt to avoid further song and dance)
Last edited by tam on Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #39

Post by Left Site »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]
There are some things you say that confuse me.

You speak of "Jehovah's visible organization."

Why do we need that New Jerusalem to come down from heaven yet, then?


Also, since my last post I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses teach that only the elect (who are all of the 144,000) are the congregation of God. Is that true?

If that is true, then why do you also call the gatherings at you kingdom halls, congregations and speak about those congregations as if they are a congregation of God? Wouldn't they be congregations TO God, rather than congregations OF God?

If they are congregations gathered TO God, how do they grow in holiness like the congregation of elect whom you see as the only real "congregation OF God?"

You also teach that you governing body are the elect faithful and discreet slave, do you not?

So is your vow of dedication in part to follow the lead of those you have determined are the "faithful and discreet slave?"

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Post #40

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 35 by tam]

I have already fully addressed this issue; see below.

Do Jehovah's Witnesses make a Vow of dedication to JEHOVAH or to their Organization
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 91#p876891

Is there a difference between a Vow and being Obedient
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 03#p876903

Is there scriptural support for the idea of obeying those taking the lead in the congregation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 71#p877071

What scripural principals support dedication to Jehovah through Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 99#p876899

Is Dedication private or public? Is either scripturally necessary?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 06#p876906

Does a public declaration invalidate a private dedication?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p877061

Is asking baptism candidates unscriptural?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 59#p877059

What can we learn from biblical "rituals"?
viewtopic.php?p=1041141#p1041141


FURTHER READING
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -mean-yes/
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:40 am, edited 9 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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