Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?
He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?
He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?
Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?
I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.
JESUS IS NOT YHWH
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onewithhim
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Post #192
But you are not saying that Jesus is not a dignitary are? You are worshipping Jesus as a god. The son of God and a woman that makes Jesus a demigod.JehovahsWitness wrote:As you have studied literature, I am feel confident you know that the English word "worship" has not historically been applied to an act of reverence offered considered exclusively to Almighty God but has encompassed much wider range of acts including those of giving honor to dignitaries. Feel free to inform me if you did not know the above and I will stand corrected. In any case, scripturally it is quite evident the word translated into the English "worship" in most bibles, covers an act of obeissance/honor that can legitimately be offered anyone that one considers worthy such honor, thus the distinction made.liamconnor wrote:Can the Son be worshiped as something else? Or are you saying that the Son should not be worshiped at all?You are right that all worship (i.e., RESPECT) that is given the Son is rebounded to the Father, and that the Father is honored when the Son is honored. That doesn't mean that the Son must be God and worshipped AS GOD.
Further reading:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 170#867170
Therefore you are worshipping two gods. Jesus is the same as Hercules correct?
You are not worshipping Jesus as anything other then a divine being.. A type of god.
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onewithhim
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Post #193
For sure. It doesn't say "our Gods." It is "God" singular. It says that God is only ONE, not more than one.
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onewithhim
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Post #194
Yes, Jesus is to be worshipped as a dignitary. That is exactly right. Because no one is worshipped as GOD ALMIGHTY except the Father, Jehovah.Donray wrote:But you are not saying that Jesus is not a dignitary are? You are worshipping Jesus as a god. The son of God and a woman that makes Jesus a demigod.JehovahsWitness wrote:As you have studied literature, I am feel confident you know that the English word "worship" has not historically been applied to an act of reverence offered considered exclusively to Almighty God but has encompassed much wider range of acts including those of giving honor to dignitaries. Feel free to inform me if you did not know the above and I will stand corrected. In any case, scripturally it is quite evident the word translated into the English "worship" in most bibles, covers an act of obeissance/honor that can legitimately be offered anyone that one considers worthy such honor, thus the distinction made.liamconnor wrote:Can the Son be worshiped as something else? Or are you saying that the Son should not be worshiped at all?You are right that all worship (i.e., RESPECT) that is given the Son is rebounded to the Father, and that the Father is honored when the Son is honored. That doesn't mean that the Son must be God and worshipped AS GOD.
Further reading:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 170#867170
Therefore you are worshipping two gods. Jesus is the same as Hercules correct?
You are not worshipping Jesus as anything other then a divine being.. A type of god.
Post #195
How many dignitaries do you worship? Bet it only one. That means you don't worship dignitaries. You only worship Jesus because even according to you ha is a god. Not the god, but a god since he is the son of a god.onewithhim wrote:Yes, Jesus is to be worshipped as a dignitary. That is exactly right. Because no one is worshipped as GOD ALMIGHTY except the Father, Jehovah.
So, tell me all the people you worship and pray to. Do you pray to Jesus? One does not pray to most dignitaries.
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onewithhim
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Post #196
I have explained many times that "worship" just means a showing of respect. We "worship" dignitaries by showing them the respect and honor they ask for as high officials. This is in line with Romans 13:7 which calls for Christians to respect the authorities.Donray wrote:How many dignitaries do you worship? Bet it only one. That means you don't worship dignitaries. You only worship Jesus because even according to you ha is a god. Not the god, but a god since he is the son of a god.onewithhim wrote:Yes, Jesus is to be worshipped as a dignitary. That is exactly right. Because no one is worshipped as GOD ALMIGHTY except the Father, Jehovah.
So, tell me all the people you worship and pray to. Do you pray to Jesus? One does not pray to most dignitaries.
I do not pray to Jesus. I pray to only one Person, Jehovah---Almighty God. He is the ONLY one that I worship as Almighty God.
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Post #197
Please explain how you worship Jesus. Explain how you would worship a dignitary and maybe I could understand how you worship Jesus. Do you just say Jesus your worship?onewithhim wrote: I do not pray to Jesus. I pray to only one Person, Jehovah---Almighty God. He is the ONLY one that I worship as Almighty God.
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One does not worship a dignitary unless they meet them and I take it you have never met Jesus. So I don't understand please give me an example of your worship of Jesus.
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onewithhim
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Post #198
Are you for real? I keep explaining this, over and over, and you keep asking the same stuff. I'm done with this issue of worshiping. It has been answered.Donray wrote:Please explain how you worship Jesus. Explain how you would worship a dignitary and maybe I could understand how you worship Jesus. Do you just say Jesus your worship?onewithhim wrote: I do not pray to Jesus. I pray to only one Person, Jehovah---Almighty God. He is the ONLY one that I worship as Almighty God.
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One does not worship a dignitary unless they meet them and I take it you have never met Jesus. So I don't understand please give me an example of your worship of Jesus.
Post #199
Where have you ever said how you worship dignitaries like Jesus? You have not.onewithhim wrote:Are you for real? I keep explaining this, over and over, and you keep asking the same stuff. I'm done with this issue of worshiping. It has been answered.Donray wrote:Please explain how you worship Jesus. Explain how you would worship a dignitary and maybe I could understand how you worship Jesus. Do you just say Jesus your worship?onewithhim wrote: I do not pray to Jesus. I pray to only one Person, Jehovah---Almighty God. He is the ONLY one that I worship as Almighty God.
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One does not worship a dignitary unless they meet them and I take it you have never met Jesus. So I don't understand please give me an example of your worship of Jesus.
Post #200
[Replying to post 198 by Donray]
We are speaking of how 'worship' was understood in OT and NT times!
The NT Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 trinitarian United Bible Societies’ A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: “[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another’s feet.�
Even the noted trinitarian scholar W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:
“PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26.�
“Obeisance,� of course, shows “respect, submission, or reverence� - Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.
Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:
“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]� - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.
Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible tells us:
“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …� - p. 941, vol. 4.
The Hebrew word most often translated “worship� is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament.
Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’� And,
“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).� - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.
Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:
“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.�
The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated “prostrated himself before� at Matt. 18:26, NASB, even though the KJV uses the literal “worship� there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant “worships� [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,
“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator.�
At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people “worship before thy feet.� - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo! The ASV again adds this footnote: “The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature, or the Creator.�
We can see the same thing at Is. 45:14. Here God, speaking to his faithful human followers of the last days, says:
“and they [the rest of surviving mankind] ... shall fall down [shachah - ‘worship’] unto thee, they shall make supplication [palal - ‘pray’: see The Jerusalem Bible and AT] unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee [see my IN/WITH study]; and there is none else.� - KJV, ASV. - cf. Is. 49:23.
Even the ancient Greek translation, the Septuagint, says at Is. 45:14 -
“and they ... shall [proskuneo - ‘worship’] thee and make supplication [proseuchomai - ‘pray’] to thee: because God is in thee; and there is no God beside thee, O Lord.� (Notice all the trinitarian-type “evidence� here that could “prove� these men are “equally God�!) - The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, Greek and English, Zondervan Ed., 1970.
So we see that the king of Israel, for example, could receive proskuneo or shachah in his role as a representative of a higher authority (Jehovah), or he could receive it in recognition of his own earthly position of authority that God allowed him to have. For example, at 2 Sam. 14:22 Joab “worships� ‘my Lord’ (King David). The Hebrew word shachah translated in most places in the Bible as “worship� is here translated “did obeisance� in the RSV. In the Greek Septuagint the word used is proskuneo. So, in spite of their both sharing the same fleshly human nature, one gave the other proskuneo or shachah!
We see the same thing at 1 Kings 1:16, 31 when Bathsheba gives shachah to her husband and king, David (3 Kings 1:16, 31 in Sept.).
We are speaking of how 'worship' was understood in OT and NT times!
The NT Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 trinitarian United Bible Societies’ A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: “[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another’s feet.�
Even the noted trinitarian scholar W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:
“PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26.�
“Obeisance,� of course, shows “respect, submission, or reverence� - Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.
Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:
“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]� - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.
Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible tells us:
“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …� - p. 941, vol. 4.
The Hebrew word most often translated “worship� is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament.
Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’� And,
“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).� - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.
Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:
“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.�
The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated “prostrated himself before� at Matt. 18:26, NASB, even though the KJV uses the literal “worship� there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant “worships� [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,
“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator.�
At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people “worship before thy feet.� - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo! The ASV again adds this footnote: “The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature, or the Creator.�
We can see the same thing at Is. 45:14. Here God, speaking to his faithful human followers of the last days, says:
“and they [the rest of surviving mankind] ... shall fall down [shachah - ‘worship’] unto thee, they shall make supplication [palal - ‘pray’: see The Jerusalem Bible and AT] unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee [see my IN/WITH study]; and there is none else.� - KJV, ASV. - cf. Is. 49:23.
Even the ancient Greek translation, the Septuagint, says at Is. 45:14 -
“and they ... shall [proskuneo - ‘worship’] thee and make supplication [proseuchomai - ‘pray’] to thee: because God is in thee; and there is no God beside thee, O Lord.� (Notice all the trinitarian-type “evidence� here that could “prove� these men are “equally God�!) - The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, Greek and English, Zondervan Ed., 1970.
So we see that the king of Israel, for example, could receive proskuneo or shachah in his role as a representative of a higher authority (Jehovah), or he could receive it in recognition of his own earthly position of authority that God allowed him to have. For example, at 2 Sam. 14:22 Joab “worships� ‘my Lord’ (King David). The Hebrew word shachah translated in most places in the Bible as “worship� is here translated “did obeisance� in the RSV. In the Greek Septuagint the word used is proskuneo. So, in spite of their both sharing the same fleshly human nature, one gave the other proskuneo or shachah!
We see the same thing at 1 Kings 1:16, 31 when Bathsheba gives shachah to her husband and king, David (3 Kings 1:16, 31 in Sept.).
