The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[myth-one.com]

Since there is no one verse that can be interpreted to claim that our pre-existence is false, I will stick to it.

Who needs a verse?

Pre-exist: To exist before you exist.

It's an oxymoron.

Although I do try to avoid "pre-exist" it is so commonly used (wrongly as you say) that I too get caught sometimes. I of course was referring to a pre-earthly or pre-conception (as human) existence, an existence before we become human.

Good Morning,

In what form did we exist as pre-humans? I'm guessing spiritual -- as that is the only other form mentioned in the Bible.

If we were spiritual and became humans -- that's a downgrade.

Was it a punishment?

And aren't spirits immortal, and humans mortal?

How does one go from immortal to mortal?

The same conundrum exists in the Bible when The Word was made flesh.

The Bible's explanation is that man is of the physical world and cannot understand the mysteries of the spiritual world.

Which while true, is not a real explanation.

[myth-one.com]

Checkpoint, here is what we previously discussed:

The two testaments of the Bible contain wills or covenants between God and man.

The inheritance received by humans who qualify as heirs under either testament is everlasting life. Those who do not qualify simply perish.

The only way to become an heir to eternal life under the first covenant was to never sin. However, there was a fault in that first testament in that all mankind sinned!

Since the first covenant contained a fault, God created a second or New Testament Covenant.

====================================== continuing =======================================


Here's how that New Testament Covenant was accomplished:

The spiritual being called The Word was made flesh:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created!

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

Being a man, Jesus was included under the Old Testament Covenant between man and God. That is, the wages of sin is death.

Jesus then lived a sinless life under the Old Testament Covenant:

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Then He died on the cross.

Thus, Jesus Christ became the only human to ever qualify for everlasting life under that covenant. His name is written in the Book of Life as an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant.

His accomplishment did two things. First, it validated that the first covenant was fair and honest. That is, a man could obey God's commands and never sin.

Secondly it provided an opportunity to replace the original testament with an improved testament:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

Upon creating a New Testament, the first covenant became the Old Testament:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

The Old Testament vanished away and the New Testament become valid when Jesus died on the cross. Here is the legal justification. You almost need a lawyer to understand it:

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth (Hebrews 9:15-17)

A testator is a person who makes a will. "A testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." Therefore, the New Testament became effective and the Old Testament vanished away as a will when Jesus Christ died on the cross.

But Jesus' death on the cross is not actually what will save us, as it is appointed unto all mankind once to die:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

But by living a sinless life under the Old Testament Covenant He became the one and only human to become an heir to everlasting life under that covenant!

His death finalized that reward. That is, after He ascended and entered Heaven as a spirit, there is no chance that He will ever sin as a human -- as He will never be a human again. So His reward is there waiting for Him to do with as He pleases.

Under the New Testament Covenant, man must believe in Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sins to have everlasting life:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

By believing in Jesus under the New Testament Covenant, we become joint heirs with Jesus Christ and our names are written into the Book of Life along with His:

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

We did not earn our reward as Jesus did. But He will refuse His just reward and freely offer it as a gift to those who believe in Him as their Savior.

Thus everlasting life is a gift of God through Jesus Christ:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.   (Romans 6:23)

That is how we are saved!

Christians will receive this gift at the Second Coming, when they will be born again as immortal spirits into the spiritual Kingdom of God.

Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him... (Isaiah 62:11)

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

[onewithhim]

Since there is no one verse that can be interpreted to claim that our pre-existence is false, I will stick to it.

Who needs a verse?

Pre-exist: To exist before you exist.

It's an oxymoron.

Although I do try to avoid "pre-exist" it is so commonly used (wrongly as you say) that I too get caught sometimes. I of course was referring to a pre-earthly or pre-conception (as human) existence, an existence before we become human.

Good Morning,

In what form did we exist as pre-humans? I'm guessing spiritual -- as that is the only other form mentioned in the Bible.

If we were spiritual and became humans -- that's a downgrade.

Was it a punishment?

And aren't spirits immortal, and humans mortal?

How does one go from immortal to mortal?

The same conundrum exists in the Bible when The Word was made flesh.

The Bible's explanation is that man is of the physical world and cannot understand the mysteries of the spiritual world.

Which while true, is not a real explanation.

Good morning. Just wanted to add $.02 to a couple of points. First of all, truscott has said that he is going to believe we all were in existence before we were born on Earth, no matter what, because the Bible doesn't say anything contrary, so to reason with him is a waste of time.

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was that spirit beings are not immortal. To be immortal means that one will never die. It is clear from the scriptures that Jesus was the ONLY immortal individual (besides Jehovah) in the universe at the time that Paul wrote to Timothy. Our Lord Jesus Christ "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light." (I Timothy 6:16, NASB) That would include all spirit persons. Spirit persons could choose to rebel and thus face annihilation, which Satan and his demons actually did.

You brought out a good point, and, come to think of it, Jesus himself wasn't immortal until he finished his assignment on the earth. It was after he proved to God that he would remain loyal to Him, even to death, that "God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name," including the title of Lord of lords. (Philippians 2:8,9)

[onewithhim]

Checkpoint, here is what we previously discussed:

[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 590#884590]The two testaments of the Bible contain wills or covenants between God and man.

The inheritance received by humans who qualify as heirs under either testament is everlasting life. Those who do not qualify simply perish.

The only way to become an heir to eternal life under the first covenant was to never sin. However, there was a fault in that first testament in that all mankind sinned!

Since the first covenant contained a fault, God created a second or New Testament Covenant.

Just a thought on this also. You miss the entire point of the Law given to Moses and the covenant between the Israelites and Jehovah. The point was that humans could not possibly live up to the Law perfectly, that is, never sin. That was a given. That is why the ultimate "Lamb of God" would have to be provided, in the place of bulls and goats, etc., so the Law was "a shadow" of the necessary sacrifice that would take care of all sin (Heb.10:1). This was the whole reason Jesus had to die for mankind.

Therefore, there was no fault in the first testament. Everything happened just as it was intended to, after the first sin committed by Adam.

The second covenant was for co-rulers with Jesus that would reign over the earth with him to guide mankind back to what Adam could have had if he had remained faithful to Jehovah. It was a covenant for a Kingdom (Luke 22:29). Sin had been taken care of, with the death of Jesus (for all those who would accept that great gift). What remained was the restoration of Paradise to the earth.

[myth-one.com]

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was that spirit beings are not immortal.

Haven't we been through this before?

God is a Spirit:

When is God going to die?

To be immortal means that one will never die. It is clear from the scriptures that Jesus was the ONLY immortal individual (besides Jehovah) in the universe at the time that Paul wrote to Timothy. Our Lord Jesus Christ "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light." (I Timothy 6:16, NASB)

Jesus was never immortal. If Jesus was immortal, He could never have fulfilled His purpose of dying. Here is how the Bible puts it:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

You just defined death as meaning "one will never die."

Jesus was made for the suffering of death.

Conclusion: Jesus was not immortal!

Our Lord Jesus Christ alone possesses immortality as a future inheritance -- which He will not accept but offer to those who believe in Him!

That would include all spirit persons. Spirit persons could choose to rebel and thus face annihilation, which Satan and his demons actually did.

Multiple spirit beings were in the Garden of Eden, and they were created to live for ever::

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Satan and his angels do not face annihilation.

Satan presently rules the earth:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

The angels who rebelled are awaiting judgment:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

What are "spirit persons"?

There are natural bodied beings and spiritual bodied beings!

Humans are natural bodied beings which die.

Spiritual bodied beings are God and the angels, and they all live forever.

[myth-one.com]

Therefore, there was no fault in the first testament.

I was simply the messenger on that claim.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

You'll have to debate God on that issue.

He inspired it to be written.

[onewithhim]

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was that spirit beings are not immortal.

Haven't we been through this before?

God is a Spirit:

When is God going to die?

To be immortal means that one will never die. It is clear from the scriptures that Jesus was the ONLY immortal individual (besides Jehovah) in the universe at the time that Paul wrote to Timothy. Our Lord Jesus Christ "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light." (I Timothy 6:16, NASB)

Jesus was never immortal. If Jesus was immortal, He could never have fulfilled His purpose of dying.

Yes we have been through this before, and I assumed, falsely it appears, that you understood that Jesus was not immortal until he proved that he would remain faithful to Jehovah.

Why do you boldly contradict the scripture that states plainly that Jesus is now immortal? You apparently didn't read my entire post, because I said that Jesus attained to immortality AFTER he died and was resurrected! Hello.

[onewithhim]

Therefore, there was no fault in the first testament.

I was simply the messenger on that claim.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

You'll have to debate God on that issue.

He inspired it to be written.

Paul simply meant that if the first covenant had been complete in every respect, then the second would have been unnecessary. The first was not complete because the Lamb of God that would actually take away sins had not appeared yet.

[ttruscott]

Including your PCE one every time you post.

Oh come on now, only 95% of the time surely. I do like to defend the Trinity too, eh? And discussions about the definition of free will. But my biggest focus is to present PCE and I'm not shy about that.

[myth-one.com]

Therefore, there was no fault in the first testament.

I was simply the messenger on that claim.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

You'll have to debate God on that issue.

He inspired it to be written.

Paul simply meant that if the first covenant had been complete in every respect, then the second would have been unnecessary. The first was not complete because the Lamb of God that would actually take away sins had not appeared yet.

Well, in Hebrews, Paul wrote that the first covenant was not faultless.

That means it had a fault!

Once again, I'll have to side with the scriptures.

Yeah, if the first covenant had been complete in every respect, it would have been faultless. So?

There would have been no need for the Lamb of God if there were no sins to be taken away.

There were sins to be taken away on every human because the wages of sin was death, and every human sinned! Thus no one ever gained everlasting life under that covenant.

The fault was with mankind.