The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 126 by onewithhim]

1) Why pray for the Kingdom to come?

Because that was what Jesus both taught and exampled.

Because it refers to the one kingdom, whether present or future.

God chooses to answer by confirming the prayer, or command under His authority, by effecting appropriate action.

God has His royal family; believers are His children.

He is both their Father and their King, and thus they are sons of the kingdom [Matthew 13:38].

The kingdom does not come only once, and the kingdom is not something only in the future.

That once only and future only concept was the very one that Jesus encountered from his fellow Jews.

Luke 17:

20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,
21 nor will they say, Look, here it is! or There! for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

So, what is he conveying here?

I suggest he is comparing outward things with inward, as he does elsewhere at times.
That in this life we walk by faith, not by sight.

The Greek word translated as "in your midst" is translated "inside" in the following passage:

Matthew 23:

25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

Jesus examples the kingdom coming in this present age, not once but time after time, here:

Matthew 12:

22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Can this be the Son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.
25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.

28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

I disagree, but I thank you for answering anyway. I don't know why, if the kingdom was already here, that Jesus said to pray for it to come. I haven't seen a good answer for that yet.

What Jesus said to the Pharisees at Luke 17 was to let them know that the kingdom that he would be heading up would not be a visible kingdom on Earth, but it would be invisible to humans because it would be stationed in heaven. He also brought to their attention that HE, as the designated future King, was there in their midst. Really, he wouldn't have been telling the Pharisees that the righteous Kingdom was within them, because they were exposed by him as being hypocrites and fit for Gehenna.

That you disagree is no surprise, and no bother.

We are here to debate usually from a position we have not come to overight, so it will take a lot to convince us we got this or that wrong.

As to the prayer being applicable to what happens in this present age, I gave you an example from Jesus himself, in Matthew 12, "the kingdom of God has come upon you", verse 28.

As to those Luke 17 verses, what you say has merit. Jesus certainly was not saying the kingdom was inside those Pharisees.

His presence was "in their midst" as, you say, "the designated future king".

As, I say, the prophesied and recognised present king.

John 1:49

Nathanael answered him, Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!

Matthew 21:

1 Now when they drew near to Jerusalem and came to Bethphage, to the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples,
2 saying to them, Go into the village in front of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me.
3 If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, The Lord needs them, and he will send them at once.
4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet, saying,

5 Say to the daughter of Zion,
Behold, your king is coming to you,
humble, and mounted on a donkey,
on a colt,a the foal of a beast of burden.

6 The disciples went and did as Jesus had directed them.
7 They brought the donkey and the colt and put on them their cloaks, and he sat on them.
8 Most of the crowd spread their cloaks on the road, and others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road.
9 And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!

[tam]

May you have peace!

Forgive me, but I thought I had responded to the actual question, but I guess I did not.

The Kingdom is within us by means of Christ (the King) being in us and us in Him (and His Father). As has also been said, the Kingdom was in the midst of the people at that time because the King (Christ) was among them. Those who believed in Him (such as the tax collectors and the prostitutes) were entering the Kingdom ahead of the pharisees and teachers of the law (perhaps because said prostitutes and tax collectors were subjecting themselves to the King and following and obeying Him; due to their love for - and their faith in - Him).


That being said, He has not yet established His Kingdom upon the earth; this is yet to come, when Christ (the King) returns. And He has not yet done so; there will be no question of it when He returns, as every eye will see Him (Rev 1:7).

It's a government that can only been see through the eye of faith. - timothy

If that were true, then every eye could not see Him. Not every eye (indeed very few eyes) could truthfully be called "eyes of faith". But He said that every eye will see Him.



Peace to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 141 by Checkpoint]

Uh-huh. True. It's just like if Prince Charles of Great Britain is set to take over ruling the kingdom (his mother having died or abdicated or whatever), and before he is officially installed as king he goes riding through London in one of his limousines, with the people calling out, "Save, we pray, our king!" Does this mean he was already installed as the king? No, because he wasn't. So what does it mean? That they recognize that Prince Charles has been designated as their future king, though he hasn't formally taken the throne as yet.

Bada bing. Bada boom.

[onewithhim]

May you have peace!

Forgive me, but I thought I had responded to the actual question, but I guess I did not.

The Kingdom is within us by means of Christ (the King) being in us and us in Him (and His Father). As has also been said, the Kingdom was in the midst of the people at that time because the King (Christ) was among them. Those who believed in Him (such as the tax collectors and the prostitutes) were entering the Kingdom ahead of the pharisees and teachers of the law (perhaps because said prostitutes and tax collectors were subjecting themselves to the King and following and obeying Him; due to their love for - and their faith in - Him).


That being said, He has not yet established His Kingdom upon the earth; this is yet to come, when Christ (the King) returns. And He has not yet done so; there will be no question of it when He returns, as every eye will see Him (Rev 1:7).

It's a government that can only been see through the eye of faith.

If that were true, then every eye could not see Him. Not every eye (indeed very few eyes) could truthfully be called "eyes of faith". But He said that every eye will see Him.



Peace to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I agree with most of what you said. Did I say that we can see God's government "through the eyes of faith"? I don't remember wording it that way, so I probably didn't say that. But everyone on Earth WILL "see" Jesus through the eyes of understanding. Just like we might say, "Oh, I see," when we come to an understanding of something.....people will understand that Jesus is ruling and that Jehovah's will is about to be done on Earth, as it is in heaven, and they can be said to "see" at last.

[tam]

[Replying to post 144 by onewithhim]

It was timothy's quote, sorry. I'll go attribute it to him now so there is no misunderstanding.


Peace!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 134 by onewithhim]

What Jesus said to the Pharisees at Luke 17 was to let them know that the kingdom that he would be heading up would not be a visible kingdom on Earth, but it would be invisible to humans because it would be stationed in heaven.

Reading that got me thinking. Which could be dangerous!

It is so close to what I have been trying to convey, and so close to what Jesus said in the context of having to be born of the Spirit to be able to see and enter into the kingdom.

John 3:

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

Uncanny!

[2timothy316]

May you have peace!

Forgive me, but I thought I had responded to the actual question, but I guess I did not.

The Kingdom is within us by means of Christ (the King) being in us and us in Him (and His Father). As has also been said, the Kingdom was in the midst of the people at that time because the King (Christ) was among them. Those who believed in Him (such as the tax collectors and the prostitutes) were entering the Kingdom ahead of the pharisees and teachers of the law (perhaps because said prostitutes and tax collectors were subjecting themselves to the King and following and obeying Him; due to their love for - and their faith in - Him).


That being said, He has not yet established His Kingdom upon the earth; this is yet to come, when Christ (the King) returns. And He has not yet done so; there will be no question of it when He returns, as every eye will see Him (Rev 1:7).

It's a government that can only been see through the eye of faith. - timothy

If that were true, then every eye could not see Him. Not every eye (indeed very few eyes) could truthfully be called "eyes of faith". But He said that every eye will see Him.



Peace to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Ah but look at the scripture you are quoting.

Rev 1:7 "Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen."

Is this scripture speaking of the future or past? Are all the tribes of the earth beating themselves in grief because of Jesus? Who are 'those who pierced him'? Are they beating themselves?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 137 by 2timothy316]

I don't know if people are being evasive, I think its more that is the way they have been taught; meaningless expressionss are the mainstay of religions that have no real answers and it all comes to a head with the kingdom because for them its the great unknown; simply put, they don't know what God's kingdom is! I don't think its a "ploy" (well for some it is, but for most not), its just when they asked their pastors "What is God's Kingdom?" they were told "Blah blah blah blah - doesn't mean anything - blah blah blah blah .. Go in peace my son and for pity's sake don't ask me any more questions"

For those that make an effort to read the bible it often comes down to not knowing the difference between Jehovah's Sovereignty and the Messianic kingdom, so they end up trying to encompass every scripture they have ever read with the word king or ruler in it together thus the ... "It has always been, is now, will be in the future, is in heaven but on earth and everwhere, everyone is in it, nobody is in it it stared in the past but it will start in the future , it is coming, arrived, yet promised, yet past yet future, yet now... etc"

It would be funny if it weren't so important.



JW

The confusion is exactly what Satan wants. Remember Eve. Satan asked, 'is it so'? (Gen 3:1)

Satan might as well be asking, 'is it so that the kingdom of God is real'? It is up to the Eve's (we are all Eve) of the world to give their answer, yes or no. An answer of 'yes and no' is a no. I feel you on the importance of it all too. We are doing the best we can though. If a person doesn't want to see it or Jehovah will not let them see it, then really we might as well be punching at air.

[tam]

May you have peace!

Forgive me, but I thought I had responded to the actual question, but I guess I did not.

The Kingdom is within us by means of Christ (the King) being in us and us in Him (and His Father). As has also been said, the Kingdom was in the midst of the people at that time because the King (Christ) was among them. Those who believed in Him (such as the tax collectors and the prostitutes) were entering the Kingdom ahead of the pharisees and teachers of the law (perhaps because said prostitutes and tax collectors were subjecting themselves to the King and following and obeying Him; due to their love for - and their faith in - Him).


That being said, He has not yet established His Kingdom upon the earth; this is yet to come, when Christ (the King) returns. And He has not yet done so; there will be no question of it when He returns, as every eye will see Him (Rev 1:7).

It's a government that can only been see through the eye of faith. - timothy

If that were true, then every eye could not see Him. Not every eye (indeed very few eyes) could truthfully be called "eyes of faith". But He said that every eye will see Him.



Peace to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Ah but look at the scripture you are quoting.

Rev 1:7 "Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen."

Is this scripture speaking of the future or past?

Future. When Christ returns.

May I ask what government you were referring to that you said was already established?



Peace again to you!

(edited to fix quote box)

[ttruscott]

Matt 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.

The answer is an explanation of the parable, no metaphor, no special language.

37 He answered, The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom.

The good seed are the people of the kingdom...they are not going to be the people of the kingdom, THEY ARE the people of the kingdom.

As well, they are already separated from the people of the evil one (those who are not of His kingdom, those condemned already) before they enter the world as they come by different routes, the Son of Man or the devil.

The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

Whoever has ears, let them hear.