"We are all sinners..."

[Willum]

Jews and Christians claim we are all sinners, but that is a belief according to the Bible.

Is it right for them to be able to be able to claim, "We are all sinners," when a sin is supposedly something aberrant and vile?

I don't want to be called aberrant and vile.

When they claim "We are all sinners," are they only referring to themselves? or are they saying that we, whom don't follow their religion, engage in the practices they adhere to - indeed brag about?

I, for one, don't sin, just as I don't make wishes on Leprechaun Gold.

It seems to me, if they wish to claim, even brag about being born in sin, it is their right, but to make this sweeping claim about the rest of us is insulting.

Is there any way, if you don't believe in the Bible's definition of sin, that you can sin?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

No JW, it isn't the right to say something offensive, it is the right to claim people outside of your religion have the same vile property (sin - unless you thinking sin smells like roses), that practitioners of your religion do.

It would be rather like, were I a pagan, saying:
"Well we all sacrifice virgins to Ba'al, right?"

Your response to me might be:
"No you might sacrifice virgins to Ba'al, but my beliefs mean I don't have to do that!"

See how similar that is to what I say:

"You may believe you were born in sin,
That is what you believe,
But I believe man was born awesome,
That is what I believe,
I respect your beliefs, you respect mine."

So right there we have it, I'll respect your believe that Jews and Christians are failures (in the eyes of God), -after all, that's Judeo-Christianity's mantra - but don't accuse me of it.
Contrariwise, I won't include you in being awesome.

Seems fair to me.

[Divine Insight]

BN, no evolutionists don't claim we are all apes.
They claim we are descended from apes.

Actually Bust Nak is correct. We are apes.

The Great Apes include: Orangutans, Gorillas, Chimpanzees, and Humans

In fact, the is no such species as "Ape". Ape is a family of species.

What you might call an "ape" is most likely a Gorilla. But you would also be correct if you referred to an Orangutan, Chimpanzee, or Humans as an ape.

We are a member of the ape family. Therefore we are indeed apes.

Earth is "The Planet of the Apes", and we are the apes.

Seriously.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 22 by Divine Insight]

Well, peace, but the point was:
Would you prefer to descended from apes or monkeys, or whatever will get me through the argument, or be created in the image of a creature of God's character?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 22 by Divine Insight]

Well, peace, but the point was:
Would you prefer to descended from apes or monkeys, or whatever will get me through the argument, or be created in the image of a creature of God's character?

If you're talking about the Biblical God I'd rather be an ape.

I don't personally care much for the Biblical God.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 23 by Willum]

Billion years worth of hard won victories against all that mother nature can throw at my ancestors, or the fallen creation who deserves nothing but hell if not for the unearned mercy of our creator. I'd rather the former obviously.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

No JW, it isn't the right to say something offensive, it is the right to claim people outside of your religion have the same vile property (sin - unless you thinking sin smells like roses), that practitioners of your religion do.

It would be rather like, were I a pagan, saying:
"Well we all sacrifice virgins to Ba'al, right?"

Your response to me might be:
"No you might sacrifice virgins to Ba'al, but my beliefs mean I don't have to do that!"

This is an absurd comparison. The question then would be "how do you define 'sacrifice virgins'?" to which the answer would be "murdering virgins in the name of Ba'al", to which you would then respond "no I do not murder virgins in the name of Ba'al."

However, if one were to ask "how do you define 'sin'?", the answer would be "doing that which is forbidden within the Christian and Jewish religion, such as lying, coveting, sex before marriage, etc." to which one would respond with "yes, I occasionally lie, covet, and have sex before marriage. So I guess I'm a sinner".

I am, according to the Christian and Jewish definition of the concept, a sinner. The only way to deny this is either to redefine sin, or deny that I ever lie, covet, or have sex before marriage. You might not personally think that these sins are wrong, but that wouldn't change the fact that these are sins (according to the Christian and Jewish definition of the word).

Consider this. Pork is not kosher (according to Judaism) and it is not halal (according to Islam). Does the fact that I eat pork suddenly make it kosher and halal? No. I might not conform to these religions, but that doesn't change the fact that pork is neither kosher nor halal. At best I can say "I don't care if it is not kosher or halal, because I am not Jewish or Muslim" but I cannot say "pork is kosher and halal".

Similarly, you might say that "I don't care that I'm a sinner because I am not Christian or Jewish", but I cannot say "I am not a sinner" without either ignoring the definition of the word "sin" or denying that you ever lie, covet, etc.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 26 by Justin108]

Sorry, I exaggerated, I think readers with a little sense would understand that I was making a point, with an extreme fictitious example that no one would argue with, rather than open up the can of worms of whatever other example being a sin or not.

Even with the exaggeration, now that it has been explained, do you find yourself capable of re-reading the post and understanding the point? Then maybe agreeing or disagreeing with it?

Or should I come up with a special example for you?
I certainly don't want to get into another battle with you over a minor tangent I could care less about.

I keep getting asked how I define sin.
Sin is defined in the Bible, a book I don't believe in. You want a definition, go there. Quote it.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 26 by Justin108]

Nice post and I agree.

But I think there is another issue which is "Does someone have the right to say (the right to speak) about this matter if others find the notion offensive?" According to both Jewish and Islamic tradiditons, someone that eats unclean things themselves become "unclean". Pig and blood eaters are religiously unclean according to both traditions.

What has the believer in this situation the right to say in this regard?
What has the believe in this situation not have the right to say in this regard?



JW

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 26 by Justin108]

Sorry, I exaggerated, I think readers with a little sense would understand that I was making a point

Not a very good one.

with an extreme fictitious example that no one would argue with

It's not a matter of it being too extreme, it's a matter of it not at all being applicable.

Even with the exaggeration, now that it has been explained, do you find yourself capable of re-reading the post and understanding the point?

Again, this is not a matter of exaggeration. This is not a matter of being too extreme. If you substitute the "extreme" scenario of virgin sacrifice with something much simpler like "we all eat vulture eggs in the name of Ba'al", it would still be demonstrably false. This is not true for sin, however, as most (if not all) people sin. Most people violate Jewish and Christian commands and so, by definition, sin. You might argue that sinning is not a bad thing, but you can't deny that most (if not all) people sin. Unless you have a definition for sin contrary to the one given by Christianity and Judaism, you are (most likely) a sinner.

Or should I come up with a special example for you?

Oh please do. Maybe try something that is actually applicable this time.

I keep getting asked how I define sin.

Naturally. In order to claim "I do not do X", one must first have a definition for X. Otherwise your claim would not make any sense.

Sin is defined in the Bible, a book I don't believe in.

Fun fact. Sin is also define by a dictionary.

Definition of sin

a :an offense against religious or moral law
b :an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible
c :an often serious shortcoming :fault

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin

- As I am sure you don't care about religious law, you are a sinner according a
- I am sure you, on occasion, do things that are highly reprehensible, so there we have b
- I am sure you have some serious shortcomings and faults, so that's c

So according to the dictionary, you are a sinner. Or is this where you tell me you don't believe in the dictionary either?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 28 by JehovahsWitness]

It is very amusing that you agree with Justin objecting to an example that was intended as a concept-example.

Just what are you agreeing with?
Are you saying you wouldn't object to being lumped in with people who perform virgin sacrifices, because despite Justin's non-sequitur, that would be the point I was making.

I can see that, anyone who worships a God whom commits terricide because he didn't have the stones to correct a flaw in that world's creation, could easily feel comfortable being lumped in with folks who sacrifice virgins.

I see, you actually didn't read what the post was about, again.
It is not about what you keep trying to make it about:

Does someone have the right to say (the right to speak) about this matter if others find the notion offensive?

It is about Jews and Christian saying "we all sin," when only you Jews and Christians sin. I don't sin, and I am not a liar because I say so.

You (JCs) all sin.
You all say sin is abhorrent.
Do not accuse the rest of us of being abhorrent.

It is your Bible's definition, and I want no part of it. Maybe I don't speak for the forum, but you know what, when you say "We all sin," you're wrong, I don't.

You may then ask, "Do you ever say bad things about God?"
I respond "Enthusiastically."
You respond, "See you sinned! that's blasphemy."
Whereas I believe I can't blaspheme against something that doesn't exist.
and so on.