If there was life elsewhere...

[SaulToPaul]

Then the Sovereignty of Jehovah should not be an issue... But it is.

If life existed elsewhere, then Jehovah would have no point to prove. His sovereignty would already have been vindicated, and there would be no need to keep up with allowing suffering to continue. He could simply destroy the rebels, and move on.

Adam and Eve and Satan all rebelled at the same time. He could have simply destroyed them and started fresh, but it's not like there was only those 3 involved. There were hundreds of millions of angels paying attention to how Jehovah handled this situation. If Jehovah would have destroyed Satan, Adam and Eve, then no point would have been proven. Jehovah would have just been a tyrant. Instead, he allowed all to partake in this scenario that has been underway for over 6,000 years. He has given us every opportunity to rule ourselves to show that we can not rule ourselves. Have we done a good job? He has allowed Satan chance after chance to attempt to do what only Jehovah can do, which is, create peace and serenity. Paradise. Has he been able to?

Do you know that Satan won the first round? When Jehovah allowed Satan to live, Satan and his demons (simply bad angels) had fun, instead of doing what Jehovah allowed Satan to do (create peace). The world was so bad in round one, that Jehovah had to flood the world to remove the wicked. And unfortunately, Satan had to be given another chance. This time though, he and his demons were confined to heaven, able to travel only in spirit form. No more physical form. No more mating with human women.

So, in round two (the current round), Satan still has dominion over the world, but there are clearly defined rules. Jehovah has known that Satan is going to fail. There are so many prophecies about it. But that has not stopped Satan from trying. Nor mankind.

After it's all said and done, after the resurrection, when Satan is destroyed, and all of the wicked are once again destroyed, once and for all, then the earth will be returned to it's paradise state, as was originally intended. At that point, if an angel were to stand up and do what Satan did, or an human were to stand up and do what Adam and Eve did, saying "I or we think we can do Jehovah's job better than Him", then Jehovah would have no cause to let the new rebels live. The point has been proven. All of intelligent creation will be able to stand up in union, and say with a loud voice "NO YOU CAN'T!", and peace and security can reign for eternity. History will have been written. He gave us and Satan ample opportunity to create peace. He and we have failed.

When you start to look at things like this, everything starts to make sense. It's logical.

All life has free will. Only humans and angels truly understand what that means. There is no such thing as "it was God's will". The only "will" he has, is that all come to repentance and come back to him as willing slaves. But, that is still the problem. No one wants to give up their life to do Jehovah's will.

Give it up. You are fighting a losing battle. Here is something very important: Everyone who dies before the resurrection will be given a second chance at the resurrection. But those who do not make the correct choice and die at Armageddon, they die for eternity. That time will probably happen very shortly. Fortunately for you, you won't go to Hell, because it doesn't exist. Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is death", not "the wages of sin is Hell". When you die, you. Are. Dead. Period. No soul. You ARE the soul, as referred to in the Bible. One other scripture to prove that you don't go to Hell; Jeremiah 7:31 "They have built the high places of To'pheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hin'nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart." These are Jehovah's words.

These are things that the Word says. If you want to know a lot more logical reasoning, I would love to teach you what is known to Jehovah's Witnesses as "The Truth".

God is love. He is only allowing things to happen because he has to. If he intervenes, then the point won't be proven. Come to him while you can. There are almost 9 million of us, and we are most definitely not a cult, lol. Type "define: cult" into Google. We worship Jehovah, not a man, and we are not sinister. We are true Christians. Do you know what the word Christian means? "Christ-like". If you claim Christianity, then you are REQUIRED to walk as that one did. To the very best of your ability.

I hope to hear from you. I can answer your questions, and if I can't, I can get the answer. The Holy Spirit is amazing.

Best regards,

-Paul

[2timothy316]

To claim that truth is subjective is absurd. Truth is objective and fact. It doesn't change with the shifting sands.

Who claimed otherwise?

One person hears one thing from Jesus and yet another hears something else, who claims that the truth is subjective...lol. You do and all those that claim that Jesus speaks to them.

You left out the question I asked after I wrote, 'who claimed otherwise'?

JW's and evangelicals teach different things, and yet you both claim your beliefs are based upon the bible. Does that mean truth is subjective, changing with the shifting sands?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Answered in a previous post. If you're not going to read my posts then plz don't reply.

viewtopic.php?p=899749#899749

[2timothy316]

I did not say everyone who claims to talk to God, does.

So how do I know that you speak to God?

You asked what would be better. Seemed simple to me. I wouldn't discount anyone immediately that said God spoke to them.

So the man that smokes weed and people of ISIS are both hearing God? Everything seems simple to them as well. Is how simple it seems the test on what is right and what is wrong?

It could happen. Their acts and message should show the truth pretty quickly.

Acts and message compared to what will show the truth? What tells between a good act and a bad one? How can we know a good message from a bad one? The weed smoker is hearing your message and saying it is bad. How do you prove he is or is not listening to God?

[2timothy316]

Though I find it strange that you (or anyone who believes in God and in Christ) could think what Jesus used to quote from as inferior. If the Bible was good enough for Jesus why is not good enough for us?

Inferior to Christ? Of course it is! Doesn't mean it does not have its uses; but it is certainly not superior or even equal to Christ. Do you truly think the Bible is superior to Christ, the Living Word of God?

Jesus quoted the Bible often and never said he was greater than it. No communication from God is inferior. Show one place in the Bible where Jesus said the scriptures are inferior, just one passage. I'll save you some time, Jesus never says that. Here is what he said, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’� Some words? No every word. We need to listen to both. It is your heart that told yourself that the imbalance exists between Jesus and the Bible because nowhere is it said in the Bible.

The phrase “word of God� means more than the printed words on a page. God is a communicator and has been speaking into the human realm since the beginning. He speaks through His creation (Psalm 19:1), through ancient prophets (Hosea 12:10; Hebrews 1:1), through the Holy Spirit (John 16:13; Acts 16:6), through Scripture (Hebrews 4:12), and through the Person of His Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:9). We can learn to know God better by seeking to hear Him in every way that He speaks.

Yes the Bible does have it's uses. Setting things straight is one of them. 2 Timothy 3:16. Yet you convince yourself otherwise much like the weed smoking man. All that reject Jesus' words or the words of the Bible are not living on every word that comes from God's mouth.

[2timothy316]

What is your touchstone? What do you hold what you hear up to in order to see if it pure. What should the man that smokes weed hold what he hears up to in order to see if it is pure?

We must hold everything up to the Light. Christ is the Light. Christ is the Truth.

And when they do and that 'voice' comes back, according to some, to attack other out the love for God, then what?

'The Light' according to whom? Some say they have the light and you don't. How do you prove you're right and they are wrong? Some say that Jesus tells them that there are people burning in Hell some say there are not, which one is truth and how can it be proven?

As stated earlier, we are told to test the inspired expression. So I would test that against Christ (ask Him), against love (which God IS and which the law IS), and against what is written (beginning with what Christ said and did, since He is the Truth).

Where is the Law of love found? The law of love according the voices that talk to you or the ones that talk to man that smokes weed?

The vagueness of your answers is not moving the conversation anywhere. I'm struggling to find answers in your posts at all.

[tam]

To claim that truth is subjective is absurd. Truth is objective and fact. It doesn't change with the shifting sands.

Who claimed otherwise?

One person hears one thing from Jesus and yet another hears something else, who claims that the truth is subjective...lol. You do and all those that claim that Jesus speaks to them.

You left out the question I asked after I wrote, 'who claimed otherwise'?

JW's and evangelicals teach different things, and yet you both claim your beliefs are based upon the bible. Does that mean truth is subjective, changing with the shifting sands?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Answered in a previous post. If you're not going to read my posts then plz don't reply.

viewtopic.php?p=899749#899749

So that would be a no. People looking at the exact same information and coming to different conclusions does not mean that truth is subjective. People teaching different things (regardless of the source they claim) also does not mean that truth is subjective.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

So that would be a no. People looking at the exact same information and coming to different conclusions does not mean that truth is subjective. People teaching different things (regardless of the source they claim) also does not mean that truth is subjective.

Are you saying that you and the man that smokes weed are both hearing truth but coming to a different conclusion? If so, prove this please.

As you can see I do not have this problem of proving what I hear from the Bible. One person might read one thing but draw a different conclusion from me. Yet we can both point to the same source and everyone can see it. You and the weed smoker can't do that and you both like it that way. From the evidence I can see, he says what he wants to hear so he can keep doing what he wants and you hear what you hear so you can do the same. There is no way to tell what you are both hearing or that it is even comes from Jesus at all. You are both convinced but I am not. I will highly recommend that no one listen to anyone that claims that they only will listen to what they hear in their head with the help of weed or not.

[tam]

Though I find it strange that you (or anyone who believes in God and in Christ) could think what Jesus used to quote from as inferior. If the Bible was good enough for Jesus why is not good enough for us?

Inferior to Christ? Of course it is! Doesn't mean it does not have its uses; but it is certainly not superior or even equal to Christ. Do you truly think the Bible is superior to Christ, the Living Word of God?

Jesus quoted the Bible often and never said he was greater than it.

Are you serious? (edited to add: okay, I apologize for asking that... it might be considered rude. I just do not understand this thinking.)

I don't even know what to say to that... wait:

"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life."


Eternal life was not found in the scriptures. Eternal life is found in Christ.

And did God say, these are the scriptures, that I love, listen to them?

Or did He say:

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to HIM."


And did the apostles understand what was written in the scriptures about Christ, or did Christ open their eyes to understand what was written about Him? So which was greater? That which cannot be understood in truth without Christ, or Christ?

You must understand that the purpose of the scriptures is to testify to Christ. The one being testified TO is the one who is important (else, why testify to him at all?) But then we are to come to Him, and listen to Him. He is the LIVING Word of God. He is the one to whom WE are supposed to testify. ("...you will be my witnesses...")

Christ also did not say that if you know the scriptures, then you know God. He said, "If you know ME, you know my Father also.

No communication from God is inferior. Show one place in the Bible where Jesus said the scriptures are inferior, just one passage.

Oops, ahead of myself above. So see above.

I'll save you some time, Jesus never says that. Here is what he said, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’� Some words? No every word. We need to listen to both. It is your heart that told yourself that the imbalance exists between Jesus and the Bible because nowhere is it said in the Bible.

See above once again.

The phrase “word of God� means more than the printed words on a page.

Totally agreed.

Christ is the Word of God. He is far more than printed words on a page.

God is a communicator and has been speaking into the human realm since the beginning. He speaks through His creation (Psalm 19:1), through ancient prophets (Hosea 12:10; Hebrews 1:1), through the Holy Spirit (John 16:13; Acts 16:6), through Scripture (Hebrews 4:12), and through the Person of His Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:9). We can learn to know God better by seeking to hear Him in every way that He speaks.

We know God if we know Christ. That is what Christ - the living Word of God - has said.

And while you mention Hebrew 1:1 above, you should have continued with verse 2:

On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

In chapter four, the author of Hebrew also states, "Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." Then the author goes on to state that the Word of God is alive. Of course He is alive.

Yes the Bible does have it's uses. Setting things straight is one of them. 2 Timothy 3:16. Yet you convince yourself otherwise much like the weed smoking man. All that reject Jesus' words or the words of the Bible are not living on every word that comes from God's mouth.

What makes you think that every word written in the bible has comes from God's mouth? What about errors (lying pen of the scribes), including translation errors, etc? Paul even makes a distinction in one place where something he is saying IS from God and not from him, and then he added something that he writes is not from God, but is from him.


And again, Christ is the Word of God. Also the Life. We live by Him, do we not?

No one receives eternal life by reading and searching the scriptures. We must come to Christ to have life. This is what the Word of God says.


(Reading and searching the scriptures does not even bring people into the Truth. We can see that by the divisions among those who claim to 'diligently search the scriptures'. We can know that by the fact that the Word of God was standing right in front of those people searching the scriptures, and yet they did not recognize or come to Him.)


Like I said and you agree, scripture has its uses. But Christ is greater. Christ is Truth. The Living Word and Image of God. He said His sheep would hear His voice.

He and His bride say, "Come!" May anyone who is thirsting and anyone who wishes, "Come. Take the free gift of the water of Life!"


Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

So that would be a no. People looking at the exact same information and coming to different conclusions does not mean that truth is subjective. People teaching different things (regardless of the source they claim) also does not mean that truth is subjective.

Are you saying that you and the man that smokes weed are both hearing truth but coming to a different conclusion? If so, prove this please.

A - I am not saying anything other than countering the statement that different teachings means truth is subjective.

B - I cannot comment on what the man heard, because you have not yet corrected that sentence, as I previously asked you to do. What you wrote from him makes no sense, the sentence is incomplete.

As you can see I do not have this problem of proving what I hear from the Bible.

True.

But that does not make your understanding correct. Having something written has not kept you (or those teaching you) from error.

One person might read one thing but draw a different conclusion from me. Yet we can both point to the same source and everyone can see it.

True.

Sounds an awful lot like walking by sight though... when we are supposed to be walking by faith. And faith is based upon the thing HEARD.

You and the weed smoker can't do that and you both like it that way.

Since my Lord wants me to walk by faith, then that is what I want to do. It is not as 'easy' as walking by sight. But how can we learn if we do not try? If we do not step out in faith and trust that He will catch us?

And I don't know about your acquaintance, but my Lord has taught me to test the inspired expressions.

From the evidence I can see, he says what he wants to hear so he can keep doing what he wants and you hear what you hear so you can do the same. There is no way to tell what you are both hearing or that it is even comes from Jesus at all.

What evidence is that? Please tell me what you think it is that I want to do, that I say what I want to hear?

And there is a way to tell if something comes from Christ. Ask Him yourself. Test the inspired expression. Against Christ (if indeed you can hear His voice), against love (because nothing from God will be against love, and there is no law against love), and against what is written (beginning with what Christ is written to have said).


If you can show me where what I have said is against Christ and against love and against what is written, then please do so. If you cannot, if what I have said is not against Christ and not against love and not against what is written (beginning with what Christ has taught in what is written), then why would you have a problem with it?

Serious questions. Perhaps in discussing them, you and I can reason together; iron sharpening iron and all that.

You are both convinced but I am not. I will highly recommend that no one listen to anyone that claims that they only will listen to what they hear in their head with the help of weed or not.

Where have I ever said that someone should listen to ME? Or to anything or anyone other than Christ? I have consistently said that we should come and listen to Christ. By all means, test that as well.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

Though I find it strange that you (or anyone who believes in God and in Christ) could think what Jesus used to quote from as inferior. If the Bible was good enough for Jesus why is not good enough for us?

Inferior to Christ? Of course it is! Doesn't mean it does not have its uses; but it is certainly not superior or even equal to Christ. Do you truly think the Bible is superior to Christ, the Living Word of God?

Jesus quoted the Bible often and never said he was greater than it.

Are you serious?

I don't even know what to say to that... wait:

"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life."

I'm surprised you don't know what to say, is the voice silent today? Perhaps the voice is tired or busy today?

Because we get eternal life from Jesus...so that is your reasoning that the Bible is inferior to you. Kind of selfish, right? However, you reference a scripture that says the scriptures point to Jesus while on the other side of your mouth you stick your nose up at that very same book, as kind of double-speech.

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to HIM."

Yes, that is correct and what did he say? ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through God's mouth.’� (Matthew 4:4)
Are you going to listen to that?

What gives you the right to stick your nose up at anything that comes from God's mouth? Including the Bible. Is the voice telling you to reject the Bible? I know of a woman that the same thing happened to her. A voice told her the exact opposite of what she heard from God. Are you sure you wish to reject even a part of what comes from God's mouth? There are approximately 40 writers of the Bible. All of their writings are said to be from God's mouth. How do you know that it was not Jesus that passed God's message to these men? Colossians 1:16 says of Jesus, "all things have been created through him and for him." Why exclude the Bible?

[2timothy316]

One person might read one thing but draw a different conclusion from me. Yet we can both point to the same source and everyone can see it.

True.

Sounds an awful lot like walking by sight though... when we are supposed to be walking by faith. And faith is based upon the thing HEARD.

Your play on words is very cunning. Let me reply with something equally cunning and cheeky.
There are many recordings of the Bible, you can listen to them, problem solved.

I'd like to point out here you are again quoting not from a voice but from the Bible. The book you claim to be inferior. Did you know Satan misuses the Bible to his advantage too? (Matthew 4:5,6)