The Kingdom of Heaven

[Elijah John]

Does (or will) the Kingdom of Heaven transcend the walls (metaphorical) of the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Will those outside of the Watch Tower organization be part of the Kingdom? Will they inherit "eternal life in Paradise on Earth"?

Why or why not?

[William]

[Replying to post 80 by 2timothy316]

I have already explained that 'Jehovah' is and anglicized version of a Jewish title for their idea of GOD, not a NAME as you are arguing.

There is not reason for me to love a title, or for that matter a name. I am more interested in the entity, and how the entity interacts with me as to weather I would love the entity enough to lend my support to the entity.

In the case of the idea of the GOD titled 'Jehovah', I simply recognize the EE in some of the behaviors -but not in all the behaviors- attributed to this idea of GOD, .

You quote Jesus as saying; "I have revealed Your name to the men You gave Me from the world." and as i have already mentioned, I have seen no scriptural references to Jesus having ever mentioned any NAME of his idea of GOD. Only TITLE. That title was 'The Father'

I even asked you to quote Jesus mentioning his GODs NAME, and you have so far been unable to provide anything except a title.

I also mentioned that it appears when the 'name of GOD' is used, it is referencing the GODs character and of not causing that characters (name) to be besmirched by ones activities should one use the titles of this idea of GOD as ones authority etc.

This appears to be what Jesus is saying in relation to making The Fathers name known - by telling those men about the nature of the character of his understanding of GOD. NOT by telling those men what GODs 'name' was. Certainly YOU cannot provide any evidence to support where Jesus specifically names his GOD 'Jehovah' or even uses the title 'Jehovah' in relation to his GOD.

You have continued to avoid this argument with your replies against my person and my intentions. That is not acceptable so please refrain from doing this any more, because it not only makes you look bad, but it makes the GOD you claim to represent, look bad too.

If you can't find it in you to refrain, then don't reply to this as we are done here.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 80 by 2timothy316]

I have already explained that 'Jehovah' is and anglicized version of a Jewish title for their idea of GOD, not a NAME as you are arguing.

Emphasis MINE

Below is the definition of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) in The Jewish Encyclopedia:

TETRAGRAMMATON:

The quadriliteral name of God, , which is thus referred to in Josephus, in the Church Fathers, in the magic papyri, and in the Palestinian Talmud (Yoma 40a, below), whence it has passed into the modern languages. [...] The Tetragrammaton is the ancient Israelitish name for God. According to actual count, it occurs 5,410 times in the Bible,

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com

[JehovahsWitness]

Lets go back to Gen, 3;13. Moses asked God his name. Here is the reply.

3:14, "And God said to Moses, Ehyeh Asher-Ehyeh. He continued, "Thus shall you say to the Israelites, Ehyeh sent me to you." And God said further to Moses,: The Lord, the God of your father, the God of abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you:
This shall be My name forever.
This My applellation for all eternity.

And verse 15 goes on to say...

New Living Translation
God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh, the God of your ancestors--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob--has sent me to you. This is my eternal name, my name to remember for all generations.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
God also said to Moses, "Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation."

American Standard Version
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Darby Bible Translation
And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you. This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

World English Bible
God said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, 'Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith again unto Moses, 'Thus dost thou say unto the sons of Israel, Jehovah, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name -- to the age, and this My memorial, to generation -- generation.

Pulpit Commentary: Verse 15. - The Lord God. In the original Jehovah elokey - "Jehovah, God of your fathers," etc. The name is clearly an equivalent of the "I AM" in the preceding versa

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 83 by JehovahsWitness]

Glad you realized i meant Exodus. I just saw that.

My verse 15(JPS) inserts YHWH where the others mix it up between Yahwey and Jehovah. Even the Tetragrammaton , is unknown as it was meant to hide the true name of God, Adam and others, before the flood, called on.

Either way you want it, you are at a historical dead end, somewhere in the 1300s. Not hardly ancient. Just men using their, then current vowels and language to figure out His name. You ignore that J is a relatively new letter. You ignore anglican vowel insertion, even if a Y is used instead. You ignore that a lot of Hebrews believe the Tetragrammaton is not decipherable because it was meant that way in the first place.

Logos must be used with Theos. You are obviously well educated spiritually and historically. Logic and facts should not be ignored. You can think you know His name, but there is no way to prove that is His name. Barring divine intervention.

[showme]

Does (or will) the Kingdom of Heaven transcend the walls (metaphorical) of the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Will those outside of the Watch Tower organization be part of the Kingdom? Will they inherit "eternal life in Paradise on Earth"?

Why or why not?

If they survive the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31), then they can enter into the "kingdom of God". Whether they live outside the gate (Revelation 22:15), that depends not on what sect they belong too. If they die before the "kingdom of God" is established, then well, that mark on their hand and forehead will be a problem (Revelation 20:4). As for the "kingdom of heaven", that is in the here and now (Matthew 4:17), and since they aren't aware, then apparently they missed that boat.

[JehovahsWitness]

You ignore that J is a relatively new letter. You ignore anglican vowel insertion...

Emphasis MINE

So?! Are you suggesting that English speakers should not use the English versions of names? If so why did you use a "J" when refering to "John the Baptist"?

That's what John the Baptist was offering. Not new. Something as old as history as far as I can tell.

If you have an aversion for the letter J, why not say "That's what " was offering"? At least you would be being consistent. Are we English speakers allowed to anglicise Hebrew names and insert /remove English letters to that end or not?

CONCLUSION It seems very to me to be acting like the Pharissees to insist that a letter should not be used by English speaking believers for Hebrew names ... The Pharisees (like the "J" haters) forget what was really important in favor of obsessing over details. The Divine Name should be publically praised, honoured as Jesus said "hallowed". Obsessing over the age of the letter J in English so much that one ignores the name itself, even attempting to denegrade and dismiss the name entirely, failing to "Hallow" it as Jesus instructed is wrong.

[2timothy316]

There is not reason for me to love a title, or for that matter a name.

This tells me everything I need to know, thank you.

According to your reply it tells me none of these scripture apply to you.

Psalm 91:14 - "Because he has set his love on me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he has known my name."

Psalm 9:10 - "Those knowing your name will trust in you; You will never abandon those seeking you, O Jehovah."

Proverbs 18:10 - "The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous one runs and receives protection."

Psalms 20:1 - "May Jehovah answer you in the day of distress. May the name of the God of Jacob protect you."

Isaiah 12:4, 5 - Give thanks to Jehovah, call on his name, Make his deeds known among the peoples! Declare that his name is exalted. Sing praises to Jehovah, for he has done magnificent things. Let this be made known in all the earth."

Joel 2:32 - Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.

Perhaps you'd like to redact these scriptures out of your Bible? Seeing how there is 'no reason' for you to love the name of God. I on the other hand see 6 reasons above. Remove this one as well, You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force. (Deuteronomy 6:5) It seems you have made an exception. Not loving fully, you have left out the love of His name. How sad. 2 Chronicles 7:14 says, "my people, which are called by my name...". Yikes! I'm sure you'd rather not be included in what God calls 'His people', because they would be called by His name. I'm sure you'd like nothing to do with that so perhaps you'd feel better if you removed that scripture from your Bible as well. In fact if you were to remove lines where God's name is found in the Bible and references to His name and people called by His name, you'd remove thousands of lines from the Bible. So perhaps you should just throw out your Bible entirely? It clearly is worthless for someone who 'has no reason to love God's name' and obviously doesn't want to see it sanctified. I'm sure you like your name honored perhaps feel pride when a family member's name is mentioned in matter of high esteem. But God's name you feel the opposite? Well, at least I know where your priorities are by your answer. Again thank you for your answer.

...we are done here.

Agreed.

[2timothy316]

You can think you know His name, but there is no way to prove that is His name.

Google has it right.

https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/% ... 7%95%D7%94

Feel free to change the language on the right to any language you wish to get God's name in that language. Check out Hawaiian, Chinese, Arabic, Greek, Vietnamese, and Russian. No pesky J's to complain about.

Can you you prove that we don't already know His name? Just because we know how we came by God's name, why does that make it impossible to know? Because there was no beam from Heaven glowing on some guy's head? How do you know that it was not Holy Spirit that helped people translate God's name into other languages?

Do you have a problem the name "? It translates to Jehoshaphat which means 'the lord as judged' or 'Jehovah is judge'. Is this wrong translation into English? In your view how much of the Bible is translated wrong? All scholarly works seem to be against those J haters. Yet why is it that people are only concerned with God's name but names like Jehoshaphat and Jehoahaz are fine?

Another scripture must be wrong, "After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb." Rev 7:9

So I guess the people that are called to the lamb are called in languages they can't understand? This makes no sense. Language is no barrier for these people. Why is the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet ( in Hebrew or J/Y in English) not stopping these people from standing 'before the lamb'?

I will declare your name to my brothers; in the middle of the congregation I will praise you with song. (Hebrews 2:12) Each in their own language. What a sight that will be. Imagine if there were those that are not standing before the throne were asked, 'why aren't you over there singing'? They reply, 'I can't sing that, there is no J in the Hebrew language'...that has got to be the worst excuse I've ever heard.

[brianbbs67]

2nd tim and JW.

What I am saying and you are ignoring is that you can believe with 100% certainty that you know His name, but it is not 100% certain you are right. Especially with the language changes over time. But, That does not really matter, as long as He is Lord. It is misleading to say you know His name, when you don't. You believe you do, i accept that. Every theologian except your sect and a few, accept the fact that we don't know for sure. I don't know why this troubles you so.

Maybe Shakespear could shed some light. "A rose by any other name is still a rose"

Anyway, we have derailed this thread long enough. Peace unto you.

[JehovahsWitness]

Maybe Shakespear could shed some light. "A rose by any other name is still a rose"

Then why have you felt the need to oppose the name JEHOVAH?

Why did you not simply say, "yes, according to the Jewish Encylopedia the Tetregrammaton is indeed the name of the God of the Hebrews and yes, JEHOVAH is the English transliteration of that name" and leave it at that?

Why did YOU feel the need post after post to imply there was something WRONG with using the Divine Name in English?

If you really believe a "rose by any other name is still a rose" what's wrong with calling God JEHOVAH?

Why did YOU feel the need to picking on that particular name we have chosen to use for our God? even going so far as to resort to picking on the age of the English letter "J"? or did you mean "A rose by any other name ... oh except one that starts with the letter "J"!"?




JW