Can words placed in God's mouth be his?

[marco]

In discussion the following quote from Yahweh came up from Exodus 20.

""And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon"

Let us ignore the unintentional humour in the second conditional statement and ask simply why God is so concerned about nakedness.

We'll hear that we must immerse ourselves in the times and practices of the past, but it is the Creator of the Universe speaking. Perhaps his commands suggests a human composition.

In reading the above do we

(a) Laugh (b) Praise God for his attention to detail and his concern about decency
(c) Conclude that this is not God talking.

[marco]

I do not see how this is an argument; seems more like a description of your own aesthetic reaction.

Possibly that is what it is. Others have an ecstatic reaction to the portrayal of God in the OT. Our reaction to a character's portrayal is the basis for what we might then say. I find that direct speech attributed to God reduces his status. Take one of his earlier soliloquys.

"And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?"

This player has just built the Universe and placed Mercury in an orbit closest to the sun.

[1213]

There is nothing bad about it. It is probably socially inappropriate but surely outside the remit of Almighty God.

Interesting, what makes you right person to say what is remit of all Almighty God? God’s commandments are all about the “love your neighbor as yourself�. And taking care of that neighbor doesn’t see anything that he might not like to see, is well in that region.

[marco]

Interesting, what makes you right person to say what is remit of all Almighty God? God’s commandments are all about the “love your neighbor as yourself�. And taking care of that neighbor doesn’t see anything that he might not like to see, is well in that region.

I am not a judge of the behaviour of the Beings of Paradise but I can make comments on the being portrayed in the Bible since I believe he is a composition of human writers. These writers are preoccupied with sexual matters and have got their deity to ask for bits of male genitalia. If God constructed the human body, why would he want bits cut off? The apparently idiotic scene with naked Noah and his son can be interpreted as some obscene act, but on the face of it we are asked to believe a son seeing his father naked is a monstrous act. The concern with genitalia says much about the minds of the makers of Yahweh.

[JehovahsWitness]

Israel was the nation set apart by God as the vehicle through which he would introduce Jesus Christ and, therefore, the salvation of all those who accept it from him in faith. The instructions he gave to the Israelites about worship, sacrifices, cleanliness, eating, etc. were given to set them apart from the pagans in every aspect of their lives.

These particular instructions refer to Canaanite practices of that time. Canaanites built altars of hewed stones with steps. Sexual intercourse was one of their "worship" rituals. Exposure of the genitalia was part of that ritual.

So these instructions weren't simply a matter of prudishness. They were meant as a polemic against Canaanite religious practices. God was making it clear that they were NOT to imitate the Canaanites, but show themselves to be different with regard to altars and worship.

It's interesting to note that in Lev. 6:10 and 9:22, the Israelites did indeed build altars with stairs, but God instructed the priests to wear linen undergarments.

An excellent post with which I would agree.

I would point out however that there is nothing in the scriptures provided that explicitly allow or instruct steps to be made to any alter*. It seems reasonable therefore that given the earlier prohibition that the same principle would be applied to the tabernacle and the later temples and a slope rather than steps would have been constructed to respect the principle in Exodus 20: 26; verse 25 reads "If you build an altar..." and the tabernacle and temple altars were still altars.

So the mandate that the Priests wear undergarments can well be understood to be for added modesty and further underline the chasm that should exist between Divine worship and pagan sex worship, rather than to negate the earlier command.

* The Israelites were instructed to build steps up to the porch of the temple but there is no explicit mention that there were any steps leading directly to either of the Alters.


JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, "BAD" GOD and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY

[JehovahsWitness]

The downside would be that by implication Solomon's ten cubit altar (2 Chr. 4:1) - which of course was not of unhewn stone [...] was not at all in accordance with "God's" will...

The altar in Solomon's temple was not made of stone at all but of wood overlaid with copper, in accord with Divine instructions. It is described in 2 Chron 4:1 as a "copper alter" (compare Ex 38:1b)

JW

[marco]

You know M- you make great points.

This kind of humor would appeal to the one I suspect it the real author of the OT and NT, naked and tools, well this kind of base humor can be found as themes in Tiberius Caesar's writings.

That kind of subtle humor, such as Moses worshiping God's rear end, and so-on, as well as the prophesies of Isaiah being tweaked to fit himself and his father, makes me strongly suspect Rome used insurrection, and the cultivated ignorance of the Palestinians, to re-write their religion.

This supported of course, by the great disparage between the history of Palestine, and the events recorded in the Bible.

The question would be, was Tiberius Caesar a big enough used-food-dispenser to do this to a people in order to enforce Rome's rule on a country.

The answer is, yes.

Tiberius started his reign as a well-meaning emperor, but then he retired to Capri where he hated unexpected visitors. A fisherman who climbed up to present him with a huge fish was duly thrown off the cliff for his trouble. He was coscious of going bald and when people lined the Tiber to greet him on a rare return to Rome, he had some of them beheaded. Suetonius who loved gossip and was friendly with Hadrian had access to lots of lurid stuff, so we hear that Tiberius got up to some rather nasty things in Capri.

I agree that there is a difference between recorded history and its emergent Big Names and the squabbles of the Israelites. In discussion with Egyptologists I am informed that the Egyptian captivity was probably mythical, and the suggestion it was Rameses who was drowned in the Red Sea is just wrong. We have his mummified remains, discovered in the 19th century.

God speaks over all these historical details and usually speaks nonsense. We are getting God's voice from the little performers who were spectators on the world stage. Yahweh gives them status that reality denied them.

[JehovahsWitness]

It is not certain that there was child sacrifice; this might reflect infant mortality and common burial by a temple to console parents..

DID THE CANANITES PRACTICE CHILD SACRIFICE?


Most historians accept that ancient civilizations such as those in Caanan, did indeed sacrifice children and infants, the present day debate is to what extent.

• Some studies such as "Late Carthaginian Child Sacrifice and Sacrificial Monuments in their Mediterranean Context" supports the idea that child sacrifice was {quote} "a regular and widespread practice" while others such as "Skeletal Remains from Punic Carthage Do Not Support Systematic Sacrifice of Infants" as the name suggests, only go so far as to suggest it that the practice was not {quote} "systematic" admitting that "the Carthaginians may occasionally have practiced human sacrifice, as did other circum-Mediterranean societies".

Since dead men (and children) don't speak it seems reasonable to also listen to historical commentaries, one of the earlierst of which is Cleitarchus", The Scholia to Plato’s Republic which at the very least confirms this odious practise existed.

“There stands in their midst a bronze statue of Kronos*, its hands extended over a bronze brazier, the flames of which engulf the child. When the flames fall upon the body, the limbs contract and the open mouth seems almost to be laughing until the contracted body slips quietly into the brazier. - Cleitarchus, the Scholia to Plato's Republic, 310-300 BC, Vol I, 337A (ed. Bekker, vol. 9, p.68)

*Kronos , the north African name for Molech.

CONCLUSION: If the bible is to believed, God judged the Canaanites as worthy of extermination for, among other things, their practise of child sacrifice. Whether this was for one child, 100 children or 100 thousand children a year the bible does not say. All it indicates is that the practise existed and that God judged found these nations as collectively guilty for it. The Israelites were given instructions and laws designed to ensure that such practices were not incorporated in the Jewish system of worship.

Continued in post #18 below



Left, cylinder seal impression from ancient Mesopotamia, apparently depicting the sacrifice of a child while the father looks on, hoping to substitute a lamb. Left to right: Father, soldier with weapon and foot on a lamb, priest, soldier with weapon, child kneeling, enthroned Be-el Molech with caduceus. From Les Pierres Gravees de la Haute-Asie: Recherches sur la Glyptique Orientale by M. Joachim Menant. Page 152. 1888.


Further reading
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... ifice.aspx


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[JehovahsWitness]

[Continued from post # 17 by JehovahsWitness above]


Historian Henry H. Halley notes that archaeologists excavating the area “found great numbers of jars containing the remains of children who had been sacrificed to Baal [a prominent god of the Canaanites].� He adds: “The whole area proved to be a cemetery for new-born babes. . . . Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods."

“The brutality, lust and abandon of Canaanite mythology is far worse than elsewhere in the Near East at the time. And the astounding characteristic of Canaanite deities, that they had no moral character whatever, must have brought out the worst traits in their devotees and entailed many of the most demoralizing practices of the time, such as sacred prostitution, child sacrifice and snake worship. . . . The character of Canaanite religion as portrayed in the Ugaritic literature furnishes ample background to illustrate the accuracy of . . . Biblical statements in their characterization of the utter moral and religious degeneracy of the inhabitants of Canaan.� -- Archaeology and the Old Testament, Merrill Frederick Unger , archaeologist,

“Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did.� - Halley’s Bible Handbook, Henry Hampton Halley

[marco]

The altar in Solomon's temple was not made of stone at all but of wood overlaid with copper, in accord with Divine instructions.

To be accurate, David communicated instructions on what to build, saying he had a written memo from God. And God apparently said: "‘You must not build a Temple to honour my name, for you are a warrior and have shed much blood.’

So we have this murderer being given instructions on how to build a house for God, and how much gold to use. And we accept what the duplicitous David says, without quibble? Meanwhile, the poor are always with us but the gold is for God. I wonder what this gold is doing today.

[marco]

Historian Henry H. Halley notes that archaeologists excavating the area “found great numbers of jars containing the remains of children who had been sacrificed to Baal [a prominent god of the Canaanites].� He adds: “The whole area proved to be a cemetery for new-born babes. . . . Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods."

He gets this information from the Bible rather than from historical evidence, There is controversy over what Canaanites did and who they were. They shared beliefs with the Israelites.

A very full treatment is given in:

https://people.brandonu.ca/nollk/canaanite-religion/