JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

[Tcg]

• Do you think that Jesus rejects the many millions that pray in his name but pronounce is with the harder J rather than the Y sound? Do you think that Spanish speaking world have access to God because they pronouce their J's as Ys and say "Yesus" rather than "Jesus" but English speakers are barred because of how they pronouce the letter /J/?

I don't have much of a dog in this fight, but I agree, if god can't figure out who people are praying to, he doesn't deserve to be referred to as god. If he did care, I'm sure he'd figure out a way to get the message out.

[onewithhim]

• Do you think that Jesus rejects the many millions that pray in his name but pronounce is with the harder J rather than the Y sound? Do you think that Spanish speaking world have access to God because they pronouce their J's as Ys and say "Yesus" rather than "Jesus" but English speakers are barred because of how they pronouce the letter /J/?

I don't have much of a dog in this fight, but I agree, if god can't figure out who people are praying to, he doesn't deserve to be referred to as god. If he did care, I'm sure he'd figure out a way to get the message out.

He HAS figured out a way to get the message out. His Witnesses are telling the world. We've been doing that for over a hundred years. You just haven't noticed.

God does figure out who people are praying to, and most of the time it's not to Him.

[tigger2]

Another thought:

All the inspired writers of the NT wrote the name of the Messiah as Yay-soos (Iesous) in the NT Greek (when they knew that his name was Yehoshua (Yeshua for short) in the language that he, and those who knew him, spoke.

So, why all the fuss about English speakers speaking the names of God and His son (and many others) in the transliteration used in their language?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 423 by JehovahsWitness]

English is much older than the 13th century. Ever read Beowulf or the Canterbury Tales?

I will state once again, my problem is not the pronounction , just the statement it is His true name.

It is the YHWH with the vowels of another word inserted!..

Brian is my name. Without vowels Brn. With other vowels inserted it could be Boron, Baran, Bruin, Buran...etc None of which are my proper name.

A real life example is when I was an exchange student in Germany. Everyone in the group was called by their translated name. Carl=Karl, Christin=Kirstin. etc, etc.

Guess what the Germans called me.......Brian as no translation is available in German.

So, to say a best guess from 1278, using another word's vowels, that you admit is a transliteration, is God's exact name is false teaching. You don't know it is true, any more than I do. In fact, we don't know 100% what Christs name was. We use the accepted names we have all heard and accepted. Does not mean we are correct in our choice. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. Maybe JW's are right, maybe they aren't. We just don't know for sure and shouldn't claim we do.

To paraphrase Exodus, "the Lord must always be addressed as the Lord" So I address Him as such, I find no fault in others using any of the names of God or Lord to address Him. I have said my dispute, many times and you know the history and still claim contrary?? Is that logical?

[liamconnor]

This debate appears to have become ridiculous. Are we really arguing whether someone can call God Jehovah?!!



Unless everyone agrees to stick to texts and supply agreed upon English words that correspond to original languages (i.e., don't use Jehovah when the O.T. passage uses Elohim), then perhaps a mod should intervene and close it...?

So far it looks like the chief dissenters are those who do not know Greek or Hebrew and do not like being at a disadvantage; so they opt for a terrain in which original languages don't matter.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 423 by JehovahsWitness]English is much older than the 13th century. Ever read Beowulf or the Canterbury Tales?

• Does the form "JEHOVAH" predate MODERN English? (scroll down to the footnote)
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 091#907091

It is the YHWH with the vowels of another word inserted!..Brian is my name. Without vowels Brn. With other vowels inserted it could be Boron, Baran, Bruin, Buran...etc None of which are my proper name.

• Does changing the VOWELS in a name (eg. "Tim" and "Tom") necessarily make different names?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 022#907022

To paraphrase Exodus, "the Lord must always be addressed as the Lord" So I address Him as such...

• RESPONSE: See Objection #3 (link below)
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 017#907017
  
  Also see: Does the Hebrew word YHWH translate into the English word "GOD" or "LORD"?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 540#905540

[JehovahsWitness]

I will state once again, my problem is not the pronounction , just the statement it is His true name.

So, to say [...] a transliteration, is God's exact name is false teaching.

QUESTION: Is it fair to refer to "Jehovah" as being God's TRUE, EXACT name?

To be fair it might be a little misleading to use such terms "true" and "exact in this context as that might be taken to be a reference to pronunciation*; it is for this reason it is unlikely you will hear or read one of Jehovah's Witnesses use the terms "true name" and "exact name".

Is it fair to say that "JEHOVAH IS GOD'S NAME"?*

• Absolutely yes! No English speaking JWs will ever hesitate to say the sentence that "God's name is Jehovah". When someone says in English that "JEHOVAH is God's (True) name", what they are doing is expressing their absolute confidence that the name revealed in the holy scripture and originally written in ancient the Hebrew letters which correspond to the Roman letters: YHWH (commonly referred to as the Tetragrammaton) is indeed the Divine Name of the Father and Creator of the universe. There is little contention about this either linguistically or academically.

[*]IMPORTANT However the statement by an English speaker that: "Jehovah is God's (True) name!" is not an affirmation about the English transliteration or about pronunciation. It remains an affirmation about the existence and confirmation of the name itself. (Please continue reading BELOW)

[JehovahsWitness]

[Continued from post # 436 by JehovahsWitness above ]

I will state once again, my problem is not the pronounction , just the statement it is His true name.

So, to say [...] a transliteration, is God's exact name is false teaching.

The statement by an English speaker that: "Jehovah is God's (True) name!" is not an affirmation about the English transliteration or about pronunciation, it remains an affirmation about the existence and confirmation of the name itself. In other words, we are not saying that JEHOVAH is how God's (true) name must be pronounced or that JEHOVAH is how it was originally pronounced, only that we are sure and certain that he has a name, that that name has been revealed to mankind and that we choose to pronounce that name in English as "Jehovah".

To illustrate: Imagine someone was translating for a friend that doesn't speak French only English. The English person wants to know the French person's name. The translator asks the what the Frenchman's name is and he (the French man) replies (in French) "Je m'appelle ... Pierre" (The English equivalent of Pierre is Peter). The Translator then turns to the English speaker and says "He said his name is ... Peter"

Did the translator just lie? or did he do his job and translate every word that the Frenchman said into English (including the name)? Which is his TRUE name "Pierrre" or "Peter"? or more to the point, would it be "a false teaching" to say his name is Peter? Some die hard "pronunciationists" would say, French or nothing everything else is a lie, a falsehood, untrue, misleading, made up, inaccurate and fake (and affront to French people everywhere). Other more reasonable people would admit, its the same name in a different language and if the person doesn't object to the transliteration or translation of his name, then no big deal. In short, his (true) name IS Peter in the English language and Pierre in its original French form.





JW

[JehovahsWitness]

we don't know 100% what Christs name was. [...] Maybe JW's are right, maybe they aren't. We just don't know for sure and shouldn't claim we do.

Can anyone really know 100% for sure what God's name is?

• Yes, if they use the bible as the deciding factor as what is 100% sure or not. If they do they can be 100% sure of what God's name is and what the name of God's son (The Messiah) is.

So what is God's TRUE (TRUE) EXACT name?

"" in Hebrew
Chihowa in Choctaw
Ieoba in Dobu
Cehofv in Muskogee
Sihova in Tongan
Yekova in Zande
Ehoba in Japanese
Ihowa in Maori
... and Jehovah IN ENGLISH

Are Jehovah's Witnesses claiming their English pronunciation (JEHOVAH) is the 100% correct sure and only way to pronouce God's name?

Absolutely not! There are many different ways of pronouncing the name as it has been transliterated (into many different forms, in many hundreds of languages). We are simply saying that the form JEHOVAH is one commonly accepted transliteration of the "one true exact" name of God. We have no problem with any other forms, including the many different English transliterations.

Aren't these all different names?

• No they are different pronunciations (read: transliterations) of the SAME true exact NAME. Learn more
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 022#907022

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[JehovahsWitness]

I will state once again, my problem is not the pronounction [but], using another word's vowels, that you admit is a transliteration, is God's exact name is false teaching.

What is the difference between pronunciation and transliteration?

• Pronunciation is how someone vocalizes (speaks out loud) certain words, transliteration is an attempt to reproduce the sounds of a word in one language into similar sounds in another (language). So effectively a transliteration helps you to pronounce a foreign word. For more on this go to post #420 by tigger
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#907066

Does it make sense to say "I have no problem with different pronunciations but I am against transliterations?

• Not really; that's like saying I've got nothing against any cold foods but I'm against icecream. Transliteration just produces various pronunciations, for example if someone French prounounces the English name David as Dah-veed then "Dah-veed" could be a the transliteration of that pronunciation.

Does it matter that the English (and the Maori, and the Japanese etc) have transliterated the name?

• No, transliteration is not a bad thing, nor is it a "corruption" it is simply a way to enable different languages to vocalize a foreign word. There is no biblcal mandate to pronounce the Divine name only in the original Hebrew.