How does Jesus's "sacrifice" make any kind of sens

[rikuoamero]

This is for the theists, of course.

Just how does it make sense? What is the debt? Why is there a debt, and how is it to be repaid?

According to standard Christian theology, there was a tree with some fruit that was forbidden to the first humans. The fruit was eaten anyway, and some punishments were handed out.
Surely that should have been the end of it right? But no, according to Christians, someone just HAD to die. Which is strange, considering that nothing of what Adam and Eve did had anything to do with death; the loss of their supposed immortality was not done by them directly, but as a part of the punishment handed out by their god.
Even so...even if we ignore that...how does Jesus dying 'solve' that, or mitigate that?

Would it have worked if Jesus had lain down in a bathtub and slit his wrists? Or hung himself, entirely of his own volition?
I'm guessing no...I'm guessing that what just HAD to be done was for some corrupt priests (were they corrupt? Apparently they were only obeying their god's laws!) called for his execution and had him nailed to a piece of wood, with Jesus not resisting in any way.
So what does that accomplish? What does that show? From what I can see, it only shows that (some) people can kill, are ready and willing to do so, in the name of their god even if (apparently) this "isn't" what God wants (but it is!)

Now, I'm going to guess I'm going to get answers that ignore most, if not all, of what I said. I will be told that the only acceptable sacrifice was Jesus, since he's a sinless, perfect human. Notice that I didn't comment on that part.

[JehovahsWitness]

One man being "perfect" and never eating the forbidden fruit does not mean ALL humans are perfect.

All humans are not perfect. There have only been two perfect humans Adam and Jesus. Every other human has not been perfect.

Is my world q plausible? Can it exist as an actual world where literally nobody gives into temptation or curiosity and eats the fruit?

The fruit was simply symbolic of Jehovah God's sovereignty. We are talking about rebellion, subversion. An open defiance of God's law.



CAN A WORLD WERE EVERYONE WILLINGLY SUBMITS TO GOD'S RULERSHIP EVER EXIST

• Yes, its possible and one day in the future it will not only be plausible or probable it will be inevitable! Adam and Eve fell at the first hurdle and took the human family with them and it will take thousands of years to get back to Eden as it were and remove sin and imperfection from their children. Then in a perfect state, with a planet earth inhabited by millions, maybe billions of perfect humans, we wil see how many choose God's rulership. Those that choose not to rebel will live and those that choose to rebel will be killed. Then we will indeed have a world were everyone willingly submits to God's rulership.

Eden was never about everyone making the same choice, it was about whether rebellion has to be tolerated. It had to be tolerated back then because the rebellion came so fast nobody was alive to provide evidence that perfect obedience was even possible, in the paradise promised by Jesus, that will no longer be the case. Everyone there will want to be there, and everyone that wants to be there will be obedient.


JW



Would God not EXPECT his law to be broken ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#390066

[Willum]

[Replying to post 79 by JehovahsWitness]

ALL THIS TIME, I FINALLY GET IT!

If your ancestor committed a crime, you should be punished for it.
I don't know why it wasn't clear before!

Adam ate a bit of fruit, there for all the people who aren't related to him (you know the family of the wife of Cain,) must suffer indefinitely.

It makes perfect sense.

After all, if your grandfather got the flu, you get sick, right? If your father broke his ankel, you suffer the pain, right?

Since Christians and Jews are unable to stop themselves from sinning, unlike the rest of us, they suffer for their parents sins.

If your great grandfather stole something, you can be tried for the crime... and found guilty! Obviously!

[JehovahsWitness]

If your ancestor committed a crime, you should be punished for it.

Are humans being "punished" for Adam's sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#381280

After all, if your grandfather got the flu, you get sick, right? If your father broke his ankel, you suffer the pain, right?

Why do Adam's children suffer if Adam committed the fault?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 765#873765

[Willum]

[Replying to post 83 by JehovahsWitness]

Tomatoe, tomato, your post just uses words to ineffectively attempt blunt the subject.

You don't get to make stuff up in order to dissuade facts.
I mean you can call an imaginary unseen deceased turtle a rose, but that doesn't mean God is suddenly in existence.

It really doesn't, no matter what you believe.

[JehovahsWitness]

God has promised to resurrect many (possibly millions) of people that may have died without having the opportunity to learn about Jesus and the RANSOM. They may have made bad choices out of ignorance. The wrongdoer that was executed next to Jesus would fall into this catagory. Evidently he may have lived a "evil" life, stealing and probably murdering, and found himself executed for his crimes. Jesus promised this man a RESURRECTION. Of course the man can no longer steal and murder but once resurrected he will be given an education that will enable him to make better life choices in the future.

The bolded bit seemed to have made it clear that most non-believing English speakers alive now, like myself, would not qualify since it's kinda hard to avoid learning about what the gospel says.

Well that might explain why Jesus said the following

MATTHEW 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.

That said, its not too late, God is patient and Jehovah's Witnesses sincerely believe there is still time for people to turn their lives around. We believe that one day it will be "too late" but that day is not today.

... but now you seems to saying that hearing the Gospel and rejecting it isn't automatically fatal...

• See above

... So the question is, by "ignorance" are you talking about someone who has never even heard of Jesus, or those like me who has know the message but ignorant the fact that message is indeed true?

Well that would depend, willful ignorance will be no defence. There is an expression that says "There is none so blind as those that will not see" and someone that stubbornly closes their eyes and then proclaims they can't "see" something is telling the truth but their actions speak volumes. In any case, I believe God will judge mercifully between those who genuinely needed more time and those who loved their way of life and in fact didn't want to search for a better way. It most certainly is not for me to say who is in which group.

Now it is sounding that knowing what the gospel says and rejecting it is enough to bar someone from resurrection. It's clear that ignorance of the message is a valid defense; but what about ignorance of the truth of the message?

You keep returning to the same point. Jehovah's Witnesses believe we must take every opportunity to help people, even those that have rejected what we have to say again and again. It would be wrong for us to conclude that being exposed just one time to the gospel was a person's one and only chance and their eternal future would be thereafter sealed. How many times? How long? I can only say what I have said several times before, its not for us to say, we are not God and we do not judge. All we do is warn. We warn of the coming destruction and offer help to people that wish to learn more about how to survive. If as in Noah's day people ignore the warnings that is not our problem. If, as with Noah they don't believe us, that is also not our problem. God himself will decide who lives and who dies. We however would have fulfilled our commission and will be free from bloodguilt (compare Ezekiel 33)

From what you said here, there is an implication that hearing Jehovah Witnesses' witnessing, IS being shown the error of our ways, IS the ample opportunity to change our minds. By not believing you now, it indicate that it's not worth resurrected us after Harmageddon, since we still wouldn't change our minds then.

As I have said several times already, how many times a person will be allowed to reject the message and for how long is not for us (or any human) to say. God will judge who is and who is not worthy of a resurrection.

That said, we do not believe anyone killed at Harmageddon will be resurrected, since they won't die of old age or natural causes, they will be judged and killed off by God Almighty himself. Harmageddon is God's final destruction of the entire wicked system of things, individuals will be let through or they will be destroyed forever. It is not for us to say what will happen to you or anyone.

[Bust Nak]

You keep returning to the same point...

Yes, it's all the same point, which boils down to, can a sincere non-believer get into heaven?

Well that would depend, willful ignorance will be no defence. There is an expression that says "There is none so blind as those that will not see" and someone that stubbornly closes their eyes and then proclaims they can't "see" something is telling the truth but their actions speak volumes.

Right, which is why I made a big deal out of genuine disbelief and sincerity, when I ask you if that is a valid defense.

In any case, I believe God will judge mercifully between those who genuinely needed more time and those who loved their way of life and in fact didn't want to search for a better way.

It's not a matter of needing more time though, it's a matter of needing proof. Witness to me for the next 50 years and it would make no difference. Provide proof, being resurrected would suffice, and I would convert in a heart bit as soon as I've gathered enough wit to understand where the hell I am. Pun intented.

...It most certainly is not for me to say who is in which group... how many times a person will be allowed ... is not for us to say

I understand that much, but I am also hearing conflicting messages from you, namely those who die in disbelief before Harmageddon are doomed.

[JehovahsWitness]

...It most certainly is not for me to say who is in which group... how many times a person will be allowed ... is not for us to say

I understand that much, but I am also hearing conflicting messages from you, namely those who die in disbelief before Harmageddon are doomed.

No those who die before Armageddon are to be judged. If God deems them worthy of a resurrection He will give them one. If not they will stay dead forever.

can a sincere non-believer get into heaven?

No, Jesus said that one must be a born again spirit anointed Christian to be invited to heaven. Jehovah's Witnesses believe there are only 144,000 such individuals and they will make up the government that will replace human governments to ensure peace and security for all its subjects.

If you don't know the difference between life in heaven or a resurrection to life on this planet earth, you might like to look over some of my past posts on the subject.

JW


RELATED POSTS

What happens to all the people that died and knew nothing about Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 451#851451

Is there sin in heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 140#910140

Who are "the wicked" that will be resurrected?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 451#851451

Is God being "slow" or "patient"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 803#886803

[Elijah John]

So God has allowed mankind the thousands of years necessary to prove that without him, humans cannot and will never solve even their most basic problems let alone find a cure for the ultimate disease... death.

These problems are still going on. If Jesus was supposed to have been the remedy for sin and death, why do people still die, why do they still sin?

Is there an observable difference between BC and AD regarding these matters?

If not, how is the expression that "Jesus came to set humanity free from sin and death" anything more than a pious and trite cliche?

[Bust Nak]

I understand that much [re: not for me to say], but I am also hearing conflicting messages from you, namely those who die in disbelief before Harmageddon are doomed.

No those who die before Armageddon are to be judged. If God deems them worthy of a resurrection He will give them one. If not they will stay dead forever.

You say that but the criteria for worthiness seems to be belief or disbelieve. I am not seeing the distinction between "disbelief are doomed" and "disbelief are first judged as unworthy then stay dead forever."

No, Jesus said that one must be a born again spirit anointed Christian to be invited to heaven. Jehovah's Witnesses believe there are only 144,000...

Yes, I am aware of the 144000 club, I misspoke and by "heaven" I really meant the Earthy paradise. It's a given that the heavenly version would be barred from non-JW.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes, I am aware of the 144000 club, I misspoke and by "heaven" I really meant the Earthy paradise. It's a given that the heavenly version would be barred from non-JW.

You seem to still be under a misunderstanding. The modern day organization of Jehovah's Witnesses has only existed since the late 1800s yet there have been spirit anointed Christians throughout the ages; if you are under the impression we believe only individuals that belong to our organization as it is today will be in heaven you are wrong.

Do you have any questions about this or have I made myself clear?

JW