Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not literal?

[polonius]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation " New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christs universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13"16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1"8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israels tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9"10; 18:1"19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

[polonius]

[quiote] Revelation is complimentary to the Law and the prophets, and especially to Daniel. One provides light unto the other. If you understand one, you will have light unto the other. If one has neither, they remain in darkness. The world remains in darkness. The world rejected the light in favor of the "big lie". The world tries to make God in their own light/image. That leads to death and destruction, and Revelation is pretty precise in why and how that destruction comes about.

RESPONSE:

Whatever else you want to call it, the Book of Revelation is fiction pretending to be the word of God.

Should we guide our lives by fiction?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 71 by polonius.advice]

Whatever else you want to call it, the Book of Revelation is fiction pretending to be the word of God.

Should we guide our lives by fiction?

The book of Revelation is no more fiction than God is, or Jesus' resurrection is, or the Gospels and letters are.

We walk by faith, not by sight.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 71 by polonius.advice]

Whatever else you want to call it, the Book of Revelation is fiction pretending to be the word of God.

Should we guide our lives by fiction?

The book of Revelation is no more fiction than God is, or Jesus' resurrection is, or the Gospels and letters are.

We walk by faith, not by sight.

RESPONSE: When you say "walk by faith, not by sight," you and your fellow walkers must fall down a lot!;)

Incidentally, speaking of the claimed resurrection, didn't Jesus die about 30 AD? In what year was the first report written that he rose from the dead and by whom. Was this person an eyewitness???Supposedly 500 people saw the risen Jesus but none of these or the thousands they would have told left any writing. Did any of the gospel writers who wrote 40- 65 years after Jesus' death make any such claim that 500 people saw Jesus after his "resurrection" ? Why not do you they didn't? Could it have been a fictional account ????

[onewithhim]

Revelation, as with book of Daniel, as reported in Daniel 12:10, is sealed from the "wicked", just as the parables of Yeshua, are sealed from the wicked, or those without ears to hear (Mt 13:13). When Revelation unfolds, the "wicked" will still not understand, even after 1/3 of them are "killed" (Revelation 9:18). Revelation will be of no use to the "wicked", whether they are among the walking dead, or buried with their brothers in the grave. Supposedly they can turn away from wickedness, but many will not (Revelation 9:21).

QUESTIONS:

1. Do you really believe that?

2. My friend Ralph may be writing a similar book called Revelations 2. Will you believe what he writes?

If you believe one but not the other, what credible evidence exactly are you relying on?

Or are you just making the argument "as reported in..."?

Revelation is complimentary to the Law and the prophets, and especially to Daniel. One provides light unto the other. If you understand one, you will have light unto the other. If one has neither, they remain in darkness. The world remains in darkness. The world rejected the light in favor of the "big lie". The world tries to make God in their own light/image. That leads to death and destruction, and Revelation is pretty precise in why and how that destruction comes about.

True....if you understand what the symbolism means. There is so much symbolism that it is easy to get confused. But, as you say, taking Daniel into consideration, it's easier to see what a lot of the symbolism means.

[polonius]

Revelation, as with book of Daniel, as reported in Daniel 12:10, is sealed from the "wicked", just as the parables of Yeshua, are sealed from the wicked, or those without ears to hear (Mt 13:13). When Revelation unfolds, the "wicked" will still not understand, even after 1/3 of them are "killed" (Revelation 9:18). Revelation will be of no use to the "wicked", whether they are among the walking dead, or buried with their brothers in the grave. Supposedly they can turn away from wickedness, but many will not (Revelation 9:21).

QUESTIONS:

1. Do you really believe that?

2. My friend Ralph may be writing a similar book called Revelations 2. Will you believe what he writes?

If you believe one but not the other, what credible evidence exactly are you relying on?

Or are you just making the argument "as reported in..."?

Revelation is complimentary to the Law and the prophets, and especially to Daniel. One provides light unto the other. If you understand one, you will have light unto the other. If one has neither, they remain in darkness. The world remains in darkness. The world rejected the light in favor of the "big lie". The world tries to make God in their own light/image. That leads to death and destruction, and Revelation is pretty precise in why and how that destruction comes about.

True....if you understand what the symbolism means. There is so much symbolism that it is easy to get confused. But, as you say, taking Daniel into consideration, it's easier to see what a lot of the symbolism means.

Response: Some prefer reality rather than "symbolism " or "lets pretend that...!

[tam]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

It follows that 1000 signifies completeness emphasised (10x10x10).

Good observation. And 144,000 shows completeness emphasized (12 X 12).

Yes, but not, however, just 12x12, but rather, 12x12x10x10.

You are exactly right.

Actually, you two are missing a x10 if you want to make 144 000, rather than 14 400. Just sayin'...



But you want to know what else makes up 144 000?

12 000 x 12 tribes of Israel.

Which is LITERALLY how the number 144 000 is arrived at in the Revelation given to John.


Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.




No need to guess at meanings or to break it down in some other way. The number 144 000 literally consists of 12 000 from each of these 12 tribes.


12000 x 12 tribes of Israel = 144 000 from 12 tribes of Israel.



**

And if the number is literal (as I understand that it is), then so are the tribes and the number taken from each tribe. There is no reason to mention the tribes individually, otherwise.



Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[polonius]

Some cultures, even our own, are fascinated by trying to attach some hidden meaning to groups of numbers especially by adding or subtracting some.

I've known a number of serious lottery plays who try to pick winning numbers by using such systems.

Some fundamentalists try to prove divine inspiration in the Bible using such proofs but fail to establish the reality of their basic assumptions.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 77 by polonius.advice]

Yes but I don't think its just a coincidence that some numbers (like 12 and 7) come up on several occassions throughout scripture. Jesus could have chosen 10 Apostles or 13... I think most bible readers accept there are repeated patterns of numbers in scripture.

[onewithhim]

Revelation, as with book of Daniel, as reported in Daniel 12:10, is sealed from the "wicked", just as the parables of Yeshua, are sealed from the wicked, or those without ears to hear (Mt 13:13). When Revelation unfolds, the "wicked" will still not understand, even after 1/3 of them are "killed" (Revelation 9:18). Revelation will be of no use to the "wicked", whether they are among the walking dead, or buried with their brothers in the grave. Supposedly they can turn away from wickedness, but many will not (Revelation 9:21).

QUESTIONS:

1. Do you really believe that?

2. My friend Ralph may be writing a similar book called Revelations 2. Will you believe what he writes?

If you believe one but not the other, what credible evidence exactly are you relying on?

Or are you just making the argument "as reported in..."?

Revelation is complimentary to the Law and the prophets, and especially to Daniel. One provides light unto the other. If you understand one, you will have light unto the other. If one has neither, they remain in darkness. The world remains in darkness. The world rejected the light in favor of the "big lie". The world tries to make God in their own light/image. That leads to death and destruction, and Revelation is pretty precise in why and how that destruction comes about.

True....if you understand what the symbolism means. There is so much symbolism that it is easy to get confused. But, as you say, taking Daniel into consideration, it's easier to see what a lot of the symbolism means.

Response: Some prefer reality rather than "symbolism " or "lets pretend that...!

Well, Jesus used a lot of symbolism, hyperbole, etc. He did that so that people could get a better picture of what he was talking about, and also, if the people didn't understand something, the ones who were really interested in what he had to say would go and ask him to explain. That kind of weeded out the eventual nay-sayers, I think.

Jesus spoke about the last days in terms of a field being over-sown with weeds. (Matt.13) Of course he wasn't talking about a literal field with wheat and weeds. Is that what you prefer to think? Everything is literal?

[onewithhim]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

3 Denotes emphasis; also indicates intensity. (Rev.4:8; 8:13; 16:13,19)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Rev.13:18; see 2 Samuel 21:20)

10 Signifies completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Rev.2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3,12,16)

It follows that 1000 signifies completeness emphasised (10x10x10).

Good observation. And 144,000 shows completeness emphasized (12 X 12).

Yes, but not, however, just 12x12, but rather, 12x12x10x10.

You are exactly right.

Actually, you two are missing a x10 if you want to make 144 000, rather than 14 400. Just sayin'...



But you want to know what else makes up 144 000?

12 000 x 12 tribes of Israel.

Which is LITERALLY how the number 144 000 is arrived at in the Revelation given to John.


Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.




No need to guess at meanings or to break it down in some other way. The number 144 000 literally consists of 12 000 from each of these 12 tribes.


12000 x 12 tribes of Israel = 144 000 from 12 tribes of Israel.



**

And if the number is literal (as I understand that it is), then so are the tribes and the number taken from each tribe. There is no reason to mention the tribes individually, otherwise.



Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Yeah, you have it. I knew it was something like that.

I guess where we differ is that I view the tribes as SPIRITUAL Israelites and not literal Israelites. This seems evident from what Jesus, Paul, and Peter had to say about the Christian congregation being replaced by "a nation producing the fruitage" of God's Kingdom (which literal Israel was not doing).

"Jesus said to them [chief priests & older men]:'Did you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.'" (Matthew 21:42,43)

Paul said: "Surely you know that those who adhere to the faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham....You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus....Their is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise.

Peter wrote to Christians in Asia Minor: "YOU are a 'chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people." (I Peter 2:9,10)

Peter was referring to Exodus 19:5,6 where originally Jehovah had been speaking to the physical nation of Israel. He now applied it to the Christian congregation.


This all shows us that the physical nation of Israel no longer merited Jehovah's approval to maintain the position of His holy nation. That "holy nation" was now Christ's followers.