Corruption in the Clergy

[Jagella]

Scandals abound in Christianity and always have. From sex and money scandals among Pentecostal TV preachers, to child abuse allegations against the Watchtower, to the Vatican pedophile-priest cover-up, it's all over. Corruption in the clergy demonstrates that the men who criticize unbelievers for loving sin should know from personal experience what it's like to enjoy such sins.

So why trust the clergy or believe anything it says?

I can understand some people being scammed by the Christian clergy for a while like I was, but once you know you're being scammed, then the prudent thing to do is to get out like I did. Leave religion and all its corruption and all its lies behind and never return like “The dog turns back to its own vomit,� or "The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud.�

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 53 by JehovahsWitness]

And this from Canada:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/sex-abuse-sur ... -1.3854274

Which has the following:

... Until four years ago, Christian and Katja were Jehovah’s Witnesses ...

Both sat in front of our cameras and shared haunting details of their sexual abuse, including allegations that the elders in their religion protected the men who harmed them.

Christian is the representative plaintiff in a $66-million class action lawsuit that has been filed against the Jehovah’s Witnesses in Canada. It’s on behalf of him and other child sex abuse survivors, who accuse the sect of shielding sexual predators from justice.

The lawsuit, which has yet to be certified by the court, is just the latest in what has become increasing international pressure on the religious sect to change doctrine that critics say protects pedophiles.

...

Through an investigation that spans from Canada, the U.S., England and Australia, W5 exposes how the organization discouraged sexual assault allegations from being reported to police.

We also reveal that the Jehovah’s Witnesses keep a secret database, documenting every single allegation of sexual abuse against members that has ever been made.

The $66-million class action lawsuit filed in Canada will seek to make that database public, setting the stage for what could be the first detailed look at just how the organization deals with accused predators in Canada.

While true this falls into the category of private citizens taking action, it's clear that legal proceedings are in the works in many countries. Like I mentioned before, once the first few documented cases make headlines, others will likely follow as the fear factor of being the first to come forward is lessened.

Given the number of legal cases that are appearing, I don't think anyone can claim there is not a systemic problem of some kind. No doubt, most JWs will be horrified by what some in their organization are claimed to have done. It was the same in the Catholic Church. As an ex Catholic, I can tell you I had no idea and was horrified when I discovered the full magnitude of the situation.

I hope all organizations, religious or otherwise, see these legal proceedings as a wake up call and clean house themselves before being forced to do it at the end of a lawsuit.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 62 by benchwarmer]

Another one from the UK:

http://www.newsweek.com/jehovahs-witnes ... dom-837351

The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse, or IICSA, a government-sanctioned investigative panel in England and Wales, told Newsweek that it had gotten a “considerable number� of reports from both the public and elected officials about the Jehovah’s Witnesses in the U.K. A spokesperson told the newspaper the panel would “consider calls for a Jehovah’s Witnesses–specific investigation carefully.�

I think I'm going to stop googling now. It's clear there are a lot of investigations under way or being considered. The government sanctioned and/or peer reviewed research requested by JW seems to be in process. I imagine it will be a few years yet before the final picture emerges.

[Bust Nak]

You asked me for a reliable source for my allegation of the church's continual refusal to cooperate with secular authorities; go on, have a guess at what I think that linked document proves.

No, I'm not in the business of mind reading. You posted a link without comment so I am simply asking you what you believe the link proves.

You don't need to mind read, it says so right there in my post: [Replying to post 55 by JehovahsWitness.] What does post 55 by JehovahsWitness say? "Do you have a reliable source for these allegations?" Expecting you to remember what you posted some 40 odd minutes ago wasn't too unreasonable an expectation, was it? And if was too much to expect, you can always click on the [replying to post] bit to help you remember what you asked me. It functions as a link straight back to the post.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 64 by Bust Nak]

Well thank you for the link. It does not prove Jehovah's Witnesses in anyway have a culture of covering up child abuse, or have an elevated rate of such crimes. It also does not provide an overall picture the Watchtower Societies policies in this regard.

But thank you for your efforts,

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 63 by benchwarmer]

Thank you. This was a newspaper article and not really what I'm looking for (naturally there will be cases of child abuse amongst JWs, no organization is free from this horrible crime) and I'm happy there are channels that individuals (whatever their religion, including my own) can turn to for legal support. I would be interested however, in if this particular agency has conducted a comparative study, if you come across a link to that, do share.

Given the number of legal cases that are appearing, I don't think anyone can claim there is not a systemic problem of some kind.

I most certainly can and do. A reasonable indication of "Systematic" would be an elevated level of allegations and/or convictions. This not only has not been proven, indeed as I have said throughout this thread, any comparative studies I have come across indicate the contrary. Even investigations such as the Australian Commission supports the conclusions our numbers are much lower than other comparative organisations.

No doubt, most JWs will be horrified by what some in their organization are claimed to have done. It was the same in the Catholic Church. As an ex Catholic, I can tell you I had no idea and was horrified when I discovered the full magnitude of the situation.

This is a horrific crime and I am horrified whereever I hear of it. I am of course particularly hurt when such things are perpetrated by members that claim to be Witnesses of my God Jehovah. That said, I retain my capacity for critical thinking, somthing a novice to this subject often loses in the headlines.

This is why I was very clear in trying to guide readers of my post to try (even though its an emotional topic) to distinguish between reported cases (found readily on the net) and elevated levels (which can only be revealed through comparative studies), systematic cover up (which is revealed through proven policies of protecting known criminals) and corruption. I fear the horrors of the individual cases has blurred the lines between the two for you (which is understandable) and you believe you have found all three of the latter when evidently you have not.

The government sanctioned and/or peer reviewed research requested by JW seems to be in process. I imagine it will be a few years yet before the final picture emerges.

I think that's a fair comment. Having looked into the subject I feel that what we do have so far paints a very favorable picture of Jehovah's Witnesses both in terms of the numbers, allegations and convictions but playing devils advocate I agree if more studies are under way (I've not read of any but maybe they are) they will reveal more.

I hope all organizations, religious or otherwise, see these legal proceedings as a wake up call and clean house themselves before being forced to do it at the end of a lawsuit.

I second that. Thanks again,

JW

[Bust Nak]

It does not prove Jehovah's Witnesses in anyway have a culture of covering up child abuse, or have an elevated rate of such crimes. It also does not provide an overall picture the Watchtower Societies policies in this regard.

Okay, does it count as one example of the church covering up child abuse?

If so, do you think it is an failure of individuals or a problem with organizational procedures?

[JehovahsWitness]

It does not prove Jehovah's Witnesses in anyway have a culture of covering up child abuse, or have an elevated rate of such crimes. It also does not provide an overall picture the Watchtower Societies policies in this regard.

Okay, does it count as one example of the church covering up child abuse?

Absolutely not, no! Did you read it?


JW

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 46 by JehovahsWitness]

There are 8 million Jehovah's Witnesses in the world, that's about the population of Switzerland, of course there are going to be some cases of child abuse on the internet.

There are cases of child-abuse cover ups on the part of the Watchtower reported all over the internet. Any other organization that covers up child abuse should be prosecuted too.

[Bust Nak]

Absolutely not, no! Did you read it?

Yes? The church got a hefty fine for failing to cooperate with the court, in steadfast refusal to comply with a discovery order relating to a child abuse case.

Why doesn't that count at least as one example a cover up, if not evidence of a culture of cover ups?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 70 by Bust Nak]

Cooperation with law enforcement agencies is not to be confused with renouncing of all rights. From what I can see the Court ordered the Watchtower Society to produce documents which (a) it claimed not have in its possession (b) addresses issues which, according to the first ammendment are outside the courts jurisdiction (issues of religious polity and administration) and (c) could, if not appropriately unredacted violate constitutionally protected third party privacy rights .

If a party believes these points to be sound, presenting the arguments to the proper authorities doesn't constitute "obstruction of justice" but exercise of ones legal rights. If the Watchtower fought its corner using every legal means possible not to aquisess what it believes to be an unlawful request while appealing, then that is their (and everyone's) right. Appealing a lower courts decison to a higher authority is part of the legal process and, as in this case, if an individual or body believes that they are being asked to do something unlawful, excessive or immoral then they have every right to defy the court and face the consequences. We wouldn't have black people voting or gay marriage if this were not the case.

Looking at the larger picture, this is one document and one refusal of a specific request for specified reasons (including time constraints), can hardly indicative of widescale and indiscriminate non-compliance much less "covering up" a crime and much less with "covering up" of the crime of child abuse. This document doesn't even come close to establishing any of the above.

That said it made interesting reading, so thank you for the research,


JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SEX, SIN and ...CHILD ABUSE