Is the Bible confusing?

[amortalman]

Dan Barker, atheist activist, and author asked the question: "Can you think of any book more confusing than the Bible?"

The topic for debate:

1) Is the Bible confusing to the average person?

2) If Biblical scholars disagree on many theological points how can we know what the truth is?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 7 by amortalman]

I think many people are humble enough to seek help but the trouble is where do they go? A Jewish Synagog? A Church of God? Church of Christ? A Baptist Church? The Catholic Church? a Mormon Temple? A Kingdom Hall? Again, how can one know what the truth is?

Not where.

Rather, to whom.


That whom... is Christ.

You want to know the truth, come to Christ. He is Himself the truth; He speaks and teaches the truth; He reveals the truth of God to us as well. He reveals the truth of God to us. The truth of God.

He is the Teacher God sent to us. "This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him." Why go to anyone or anything else in order to know the truth?



To your specific OP questions:

1) Is the Bible confusing to the average person?

The Bible can be confusing to any person, average or not. Not to mention the erring pen of the scribes have confused a few issues (the doctrine of hell, for one). Religions (such as those you listed, but also all of them), add to the confusion, because they all teach some truth and some error; they all contain man-made doctrines... and they teach you to see the bible via the eyes that THEY give you. Basically people are looking to their religion (not the truth: Christ) to interpret the bible for them and to teach them what is true; and that is the wrong source.

So a JW reads the bible and may see that "Jesus" is Michael (even though the bible does not state this) and a Roman Catholic (and most of Christendom) reads the bible and may see that "Jesus" is part of a trinity (again, the bible does not state this). Christ taught neither of these and neither of these are even written in the bible.

Christ is the Truth. Not man, not religion, not even the bible.

If we want to know what is true, then we have to come to Christ; buy eye salve from Him. He had to open the eyes of His apostles, did He not, so that they saw and understood what was written in the scriptures about Him?

2) If Biblical scholars disagree on many theological points how can we know what the truth is?

Turn to Christ and listen to Him.

Theological points are often infused with things that man has interpreted, traditions of men, man-made doctrines, etc. As stated above.


Tear it all down. Right to the cornerstone (Christ). Then build back up on Him and only Him.





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

JW, I'm sure all Jehovah's Witnesses think they have a corner on the truth. But don't you see, members of every sect, faction, and denomination think they occupy the same corner. Every person who enters a quest for religious truth carries with him or her their personal baggage of biases, preferences, and influences. We perceive what is true or false according to these and a thousand other psychological functions.

[amortalman]

I think bjs is right. We see the same things in mathematics, the sciences, reading NFL offenses, and any number of pursuits of knowledge. There may be more agreement among math scholars than anything else, but that is just the nature of pure mathematics. There is wide disagreement in various sciences, how to defend the Kansas City Chiefs, etc. Unfortunately, just about anyone who wants to can call themselves a 'scholar' of the Bible (or other religious texts and systems) and be accepted as such by some others.

One would think the nature of an almighty God would be above even pure mathematics and able to produce a book that left no room for misunderstanding.

[The Tanager]

One would think the nature of an almighty God would be above even pure mathematics and able to produce a book that left no room for misunderstanding.

Why?

[amortalman]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 7 by amortalman]

I think many people are humble enough to seek help but the trouble is where do they go? A Jewish Synagog? A Church of God? Church of Christ? A Baptist Church? The Catholic Church? a Mormon Temple? A Kingdom Hall? Again, how can one know what the truth is?

Not where.

Rather, to whom.


That whom... is Christ.

You want to know the truth, come to Christ. He is Himself the truth; He speaks and teaches the truth; He reveals the truth of God to us as well. He reveals the truth of God to us. The truth of God.

He is the Teacher God sent to us. "This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him." Why go to anyone or anything else in order to know the truth?

And peace to you, Tam.

You talk as if Christ is standing on the street corner, ready and willing to answer all the theological questions of the ages. His Father had a chance to do that in the pages of the Old Testament and look how badly that turned out. Jesus had the chance to do it when he supposedly taught for three years. He confused everybody, Jews, Gentiles, even his own disciples.

To your specific OP questions:

1) Is the Bible confusing to the average person?

The Bible can be confusing to any person, average or not. Not to mention the erring pen of the scribes have confused a few issues (the doctrine of hell, for one). Religions (such as those you listed, but also all of them), add to the confusion, because they all teach some truth and some error; they all contain man-made doctrines... and they teach you to see the bible via the eyes that THEY give you. Basically people are looking to their religion (not the truth: Christ) to interpret the bible for them and to teach them what is true; and that is the wrong source.

Let me get this straight. You can't trust the Biblical scholars, teachers, pastors, and you can't even trust the Bible. From where do you get your understanding? Please don't tell me Jesus talks to you. Jim Jones thought he talked to him, too. Not that I would ever compare you to Jim Jones but surely you see the danger of allowing that method to be one's primary source of interpretation.

Christ is the Truth. Not man, not religion, not even the bible.

Good. I'm sure you and he have some interesting conversations. The rest of Christendom, however, will have to depend on their Bibles, teachers, and pastors to help them understand all the confusion in scripture.

If we want to know what is true, then we have to come to Christ; buy eye salve from Him. He had to open the eyes of His apostles, did He not, so that they saw and understood what was written in the scriptures about Him?

Yeah, and he was right there in person to explain it. If I remember correctly the Bible encourages teachers. There is even something about Christ telling his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Preaching is teaching, isn't it? But you don't trust the teachers because they're mere mortals. Maybe you should run that by Christ the next time you two talk.

2) If Biblical scholars disagree on many theological points how can we know what the truth is?

Turn to Christ and listen to Him.

I think he's said about all he's going to say about it.

Theological points are often infused with things that man has interpreted, traditions of men, man-made doctrines, etc. As stated above.

Exactly. That's why I asked the questions.

Tear it all down.

I will stop with that sentence. It's very good advice!

[amortalman]

One would think the nature of an almighty God would be above even pure mathematics and able to produce a book that left no room for misunderstanding.

Why?

Because he is supposedly full of loving kindness and compassion and "not the author of confusion" and truthful, and our "Heavenly Father" who desires "everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth," and 'not be led astray.' That's why.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Is the Bible confusing?

I prefer to consider it confounding.

If poking a stick in the ground can affect the color or pattern of mammalian offspring, how come there ain't no checkered goats?

Dan Barker, atheist activist, and author asked the question: "Can you think of any book more confusing than the Bible?"

I remember that time pretty thing had to go to the doctor there, for her some of them female dealings, and I'm sorry to tell it, but I had to go with her, 'cause I guess all of a sudden there, I was me a girl too. I ain't proud of it, it's just that's the only conclusion that makes it the first bit of sense of why I'd be me in the same building with me a doctor of girls. And in that place, there was to read there this book called 'Cosmopolitan'. Really. That's how they spelled it. I'm here to tell it, I can make me better sense out of checkered colored goats than I ever will about all that.

1) Is the Bible confusing to the average person?

Our problem here is the figuring out what's meant by 'average'. And how that relates to an above average bunch has them religious beliefs.

2) If Biblical scholars disagree on many theological points how can we know what the truth is?

By asking them to scholars to show they speak it, and what the heck was that 'Cosmopolitan' book a-gettin' at.

Conclusions?

The holy word of God is only confusing to them that can't be confused with the truth. That truth being the profound inability of the god promoter to point out his throne, much less his other'n.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

Every person who enters a quest for religious truth....

Emphasis MINE

You rightly identified the person the information in my posts and links is for, a "person on the quest for religious truth". After nearly 40 years of helping people searching truth I can usually spot someone (even online) that is honestly on that search from the things they say and the way they react to the help I offer.

I try and pack my posts with enough links and information to help this specific group of people (a person on " a quest for religious truth") on their way.




RELATED POSTS


How can I understand the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 714#940714

Should I visit a kingdom hall?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 785#940785

[The Tanager]

Because he is supposedly full of loving kindness and compassion and "not the author of confusion" and truthful, and our "Heavenly Father" who desires "everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth," and 'not be led astray.' That's why.

I'm not sure we could ever get to certainty in anything that exists as more than just a concept. If God appeared to you right now and did the things your critique is asking Him to do, you could still think it was just a hallucination or that we are brains in a vat or whatever.

I think it is possible that this hiddenness is more out of uncontrolling love than cruelty. What is God after? Supposedly, it's not just knowledge. And it's not just good behavior. It's people willingly choosing to enter into a life-transforming loving community with God and others. It's not clear that making His non-existence unthinkable would achieve this. If you are going to use what the Bible says (like you do above), we need to be consistent in that and take note of the stories where people have God's existence being obvious and still rejecting God (like the Israelites after the Exodus).

For me, it's the mystery in, say, my wife that keeps pushing me deeper into the relationship. Or I think about a game like hide-and-seek. If I'm not searching for something, I'm going to stay right where I am at. God's hiddenness might be for a life-transforming purpose like that. If we are all going to be know-it-alls, then I'm not sure the point of life in community.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 7 by amortalman]

I think many people are humble enough to seek help but the trouble is where do they go? A Jewish Synagog? A Church of God? Church of Christ? A Baptist Church? The Catholic Church? a Mormon Temple? A Kingdom Hall? Again, how can one know what the truth is?

Not where.

Rather, to whom.


That whom... is Christ.

You want to know the truth, come to Christ. He is Himself the truth; He speaks and teaches the truth; He reveals the truth of God to us as well. He reveals the truth of God to us. The truth of God.

He is the Teacher God sent to us. "This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him." Why go to anyone or anything else in order to know the truth?

And peace to you, Tam.

You talk as if Christ is standing on the street corner, ready and willing to answer all the theological questions of the ages. His Father had a chance to do that in the pages of the Old Testament and look how badly that turned out. Jesus had the chance to do it when he supposedly taught for three years. He confused everybody, Jews, Gentiles, even his own disciples.

Thank you for your wish of peace!

Not on the street corner per se, but:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Rev 3:20


Now you may not believe that Christ lives and speaks, but that is what that book (and the apostles, and other disciples, and Christ Himself) testifies TO.

viewtopic.php?p=738377#738377


You asked the question 'where should people go'? Why go anywhere other than the source (Christ Jaheshua, the Truth, the Teacher, the One God told us to listen to), to know the truth about God, about faith, about anything? Especially once you realizes that this is what Christ and God taught us to do (Mark 9:7; John 14:6; Matt 11:28-30; John 10:27:28).


Why drink downstream after the water has been muddied, rather than drink that water directly from the source?

To your specific OP questions:

1) Is the Bible confusing to the average person?

The Bible can be confusing to any person, average or not. Not to mention the erring pen of the scribes have confused a few issues (the doctrine of hell, for one). Religions (such as those you listed, but also all of them), add to the confusion, because they all teach some truth and some error; they all contain man-made doctrines... and they teach you to see the bible via the eyes that THEY give you. Basically people are looking to their religion (not the truth: Christ) to interpret the bible for them and to teach them what is true; and that is the wrong source.

Let me get this straight. You can't trust the Biblical scholars, teachers, pastors, and you can't even trust the Bible. From where do you get your understanding?

From Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of God, who is alive and who speaks. He said that His sheep would hear His voice; and we have examples of Him doing just that, from the very bible you are asking questions about. Not just when he walked in the flesh, but also after His death, resurrection, and ascension. He spoke to Peter in his vision of clean and unclean foods and to tell Peter to go to Cornelius; He spoke to Paul; He spoke to Phillip, sending Philip to the Ethiopian; He spoke to Ananias, sending Ananias to Paul; He gave John the revelation; etc. These are just some examples that were written down. He has not stopped speaking because He has not stopped living. He is the living Word of God. How can a living Word not speak?

Please don't tell me Jesus talks to you. Jim Jones thought he talked to him, too. Not that I would ever compare you to Jim Jones but surely you see the danger of allowing that method to be one's primary source of interpretation.

I see the danger in listening to men or to religion instead of to Christ. Is that not what people did with regard to Jim Jones? Is Jim Jones the Truth? Is Jim Jones the one God told us to listen to? Of course not. It is a very sad story.


We are also told to test the inspired expressions (the things that we hear and/or the things that others claim to be true); and we are certainly permitted to test those who claim to be apostles but who are not.

I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false." Rev 2:2

Christ is the Truth. Not man, not religion, not even the bible.

Good. I'm sure you and he have some interesting conversations. The rest of Christendom, however, will have to depend on their Bibles, teachers, and pastors to help them understand all the confusion in scripture.

And how do you see that working out for them?

I did those things you know, in my search for the truth of God. I tried to read the bible (so I would be equipped to at least know if those pastors, etc, were actually telling the truth about what it said), and I accepted a bible study with JW's when they offered one, since they claimed to go just by the bible. I studied with them for two years. Almost joined. But in the end (and I am leaving MUCH out), their religion was not the truth (nor do they go just by the bible).

No religion is the truth. Christ is the Truth (John 14:6). I did not get this right off the bat. Once I ended my study with the JW's, I went looking for another religion to join - having now been influenced by the JW teaching that there must be a true religion (there is no true religion; there is only Christ, the Truth). I had a hard time finding one that would agree with me and the things I believed to be true. It is my Lord who asked me if I thought something was true simply because it agreed with me? I knew the answer just from the question He asked me. Something is true if it is what He teaches. He is the Truth. Why was I not simply coming to and remaining in Him, listening to Him, the One who is the Truth? The One God told us to listen TO?

So I stopped looking for a religion from that moment; exercised faith in my Lord and what He told me, and simply listened to and followed Him. He has never led me wrong.

If we want to know what is true, then we have to come to Christ; buy eye salve from Him. He had to open the eyes of His apostles, did He not, so that they saw and understood what was written in the scriptures about Him?

Yeah, and he was right there in person to explain it. If I remember correctly the Bible encourages teachers.

"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers." Mattew 23:8

There is even something about Christ telling his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel.

Yes, preach Christ, bear witness to Christ, share any truth that we have received from Him. But HE is the Teacher.


It also does no good to simply listen to people who claim to be apostles and teachers and leaders, if what they teach and preach is false. We are to listen to Christ, the Teacher, the Truth.

Preaching is teaching, isn't it? But you don't trust the teachers because they're mere mortals. Maybe you should run that by Christ the next time you two talk.

Indeed I have; He has taught me to listen to Him; that He is the Truth; that He is the Teacher. I trust the Teacher who has never led me wrong; the Teacher God sent to me and told me to listen to.



Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy