There Is No Such Thing As Valid Prophecy

[RedEye]

Christians will often cite fulfilled prophecy as evidence for their religion being true. Ignoring the fact that none of these so-called fulfilled prophecies hold up to scrutiny when closely examined, is such biblical prophecy even possible in the first place?

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty. However, if the future is predetermined then there can be no such thing as human free will. Free will cannot exist in a universe where the course of the universe is already known in detail in advance. We could only be automatons acting out a predetermined script with no deviation possible.

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.

If you are a Christian the question is, which one of these are you willing to give up and why?

[rikuoamero]

The most egregious example of this conflict is the story where Jesus supposedly predicts that Peter will deny him three times.
When I think about that, when I try to apply it to the real world, to try to make sense of it as a thing that happens in our world, it literally breaks down. It makes no sense.
Here we have Peter, one of, if not the closest disciple and friend Jesus has. He has wandered with Jesus for up to three years, has learned from him and most importantly, witnessed Jesus dropping miracles, including being able to resurrect people.
If Peter were going to deny Jesus out of his own will...why would he? In General Chat, I talked about a Superman fanfiction that I read that has something pertinent - people's behaviours change in response to Superman existing and being known to exist. It becomes known that Superman has super-sight and super-hearing (he hears all and sees all), so criminals who want to commit a murder do not say so out loud, nor do they carry guns. Instead they walk by their victim and then stab them, not giving Supes time to fly and protect the victim.
If I was best buds with Superman, and Supes was best buds with me, and I knew (and believed) that Supes would fly in and protect me from someone pointing a gun at me...I wouldn't fear guns. If Superman said "You'll deny me three times", I'd just look at him like he was crazy. Why would I deny knowing him? There's no scenario where my denying him actually benefits me (or I think it benefits me even if I'm mistaken about it).
The only way I can see the Peter denying Jesus making sense...is if when Jesus goes off with the soldiers, Peter thinks that Jesus/God won't protect him from the Jewish and/or Roman soldiers. In other words, In Peter's mind, the governing authorities are more real, more present, more dangerous, than the God his master had had him worshipping. With this thought in my mind, I'm led to the thought that the supposed miracles Jesus did and that Peter would have witnessed...maybe didn't happen as the NT texts say. If they did happen, then Peter wouldn't have feared being killed by the Jewish priests/Romans.

Of course, we could avoid all that psychological analysis by going the other route as OP said - by predicting, Jesus made it happen, thus violating free will.

[JehovahsWitness]

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty.

Not necessarily. Foreknowledge or not synonymous with causation. The premise to the question is faulty.

Further if the bible is to be believed, God has not predicted everything that happens in it, much less every human decision, he has presented his purpose and prophecied certain key events for the edification of the faithful.




JW



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Foreknowledge & causation
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 450#850450

[StuartJ]

If it's biblical it's "prophecy".

If it's any other culture it's "fortune-telling".

If it's biblical it's miracle.

If it's any other culture it's magic.

If you're a person of faith, you can CHOOSE the meaning of words ...

And you can CHOOSE which key events the fortune-telling is applied to.

But - as is the case with ALL magical fortune-telling - the biblical fortune-telling lacks names and dates.

And you can CHOOSE to apply the biblical fortune-telling to the events that suit you.

Not a verse of ANY so-called "scripture" is EVER shown to have emanated from ANY version of "God" ...

And that includes biblical fortune-telling.

In my view, it's fantasy and superstition for the ever-credulous.

[RedEye]

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty.

Not necessarily. Foreknowledge or not synonymous with causation. The premise to the question is faulty.

I didn't say anything about causation. My only claim is that if the future can be seen (not a mere prediction but with certain knowledge) then it (the future) is fixed in place. Therefore what we call free will must be illusory. I'm not sure how you can disagree with this.

Further if the bible is to be believed, God has not predicted everything that happens in it, much less every human decision, he has presented his purpose and prophecied certain key events for the edification of the faithful.

It's irrelevant how many times God has relayed his knowledge of the future to us. Once is more than enough. Once proves that God knows the future and it is therefore set in place.

[1213]

Christians will often cite fulfilled prophecy as evidence for their religion being true. Ignoring the fact that none of these so-called fulfilled prophecies hold up to scrutiny when closely examined, is such biblical prophecy even possible in the first place?

Probably not for atheists. Even if there would be fulfilled prophesy, atheist could always make up explanation why it is not really correct. After person sees the prophesy is correct, he is probably not anymore atheist.

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined.

I think that is not true. When person knows all well enough, he will know what they freely chose and when person knows that, he knows also what will be the result. Or what do you think, if I know what you answer to this, have I predetermined and interfered your free will?

[Tcg]

After person sees the prophesy is correct, he is probably not anymore atheist.

You have this backwards. People believe in God primarily for emotional comfort. Once they buy into this payoff, it doesn't matter how absurd claims of prophecy are, they'll but into it to maintain their emotional comfort.

[Overcomer]

RedEye wrote:

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty.

I disagree. Someone could know what is going to happen without making it happen. For example, I can know that tomorrow when I go to the dentist, the hygienist will be there and she will clean my teeth. Then the dentist will take a cursory look at them and I will go home. That's my prediction, but I don't predetermine it.

I know that God chooses to make some things happen -- such as sending Jesus and having Judas betray him and the Romans crucify him, etc. But that doesn't mean that none of us have free will and everything is predetermined.

[RedEye]

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined.

I think that is not true. When person knows all well enough, he will know what they freely chose and when person knows that, he knows also what will be the result. Or what do you think, if I know what you answer to this, have I predetermined and interfered your free will?

Yes to the former, not necessarily to the latter.

If you can accurately (perfectly) see into the future then that future must be predetermined. True or false?

If the future is predetermined then all future actions by every human being are fixed and cannot be altered. True or false?

If all your future actions are fixed, you cannot have free will, only the illusion of it. True or false?

[RedEye]

RedEye wrote:

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty.

I disagree. Someone could know what is going to happen without making it happen.

It's not my argument that anyone is making things happen.

For example, I can know that tomorrow when I go to the dentist, the hygienist will be there and she will clean my teeth. Then the dentist will take a cursory look at them and I will go home. That's my prediction, but I don't predetermine it.

I'm talking about valid biblical prophecy (certain knowledge of the future) not mere prediction or forecasting.